MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[rafiki_]

In the light of recent threads in the mobo forum, I'm pretty sure this is defamatory, don't you think

Being a nice person I wont report you, but I'd expect an nice long ride in the canals when I'm up there...


On a serious note, I've organised the autumn semester to have a lighter workload especially as I have just won a large research project and got half a dozen ppl working on it. I do work my 7+h a day, not 9to5 and not in the office... I don't go to bed before midnight and no, I'm not out and about drinking after 9pm, so let's say I have an unconventional hectic timetable seven days a week
Currently working on a couple of student projects correcting them (meeting them tomorrow - I should really be meeting them on Thu when it's raining though...) and just had my epsresso to keep me going for a few more hours



wot? you thinking to getting into wood? Unless you're retired or are single (or want to become one!) and on flexi hours you shouldn't really think about it

cheers

V.

Rafiki is too beamy for canals. She is really a coastal cruiser, but we moor on the river for convenience. However, you are very welcome to come and enjoy Rafs attributes, including a well stocked fridge

Most working days for me are 12 hours plus, and I fly long haul regularly unfortunately. Not looking for sympathy, but explaining why my boating is purely for relaxation, and quality time with my lady wife.

 

[vas]

@rbcoomer: agreed, but you reaaaally should setup some sort of tent to be able to work a bit more, else you'll have to put her on a trailer bring her down here and do the work in a couple of weeks

@rafiki: yep, been through the 12-14h working days and will be back there again when going gets tough and deadlines are approaching. Just don't want to think about it right now...

The following pics are the before and after the 1 only coat of epoxy that the sundeck got treated with. Reason was that I'm running out of the stuff and trying to sort out delivery from the UK but I'm slightly stuck in the hazardous and flamable nature of epoxy and may have to buy locally at almost double the price

Was rushing to get everything sealed before it starts raining and forecast (in a similar way to yours) the rain and now reports that may have a shower or two in 6days time. So time to work on the rest of the deck tackling the dodgy part where I don't have access from the cabins but through the galley cabinets and saloon sofa on port side.
Stbrd side is going to be a pain as I'll have to shift the el/panel (almost impossible!) or remove the actual helm cabinet and further aft dismantle the whole cupboard thing in the saloon. So, i'm starting with port side

Spend the day organizing stuff in the saloon (was a large messy storespace), managed to finish some BMS detailing re dimmers for saloon and helm/galley (all working now) and finished the day off with the removal of the sofa. Not impressed, there was a system with sliders (bronze by the looks of it) that meant that the main bit was fixed on the floor and seating area slided out to convert to a double bed. Well, now the whole mess slides out solid as a rock and in a general messy state. Got to drop it down to the ground with two lines and get it at George's workshop to replace a few bits, get the sliding mechanism working and store it till easter. Will have much better access to the engines with this out of the way

George is working on the few helm roof patches. It is again interesting to realise the story (and mishap/stupidity) behind each hole...

especially in the next pic where you see a large patch on the right (the cabling for the horns!) and a smaller patch on the left (the mounting holes for the horns!)

Well, the next one, i'm not fully convinced it was the previous owner, maybe a slight design issue as there's no way for the rainwater to leave this space. may have to drill drain holes and seal them properly. Or then maybe there were holes that the six or so coats of paint fully blocked

Tomorrow should see some reasonable progress in the port side deck and I should have the alu panel/window maker coming to figure out what we should use to reseal the ss window frames (that have to be removed, checked and replaced)

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

some decent progress although temp was again 29C and no clouds blocking the bugger...

On the helm patches front some progress as well, should be finished on Monday as most patches were a 3 level job, first the bottom is epoxied, next day, cleared/sanded/checked, side wall part is added and the third day the capping is added...

The two photos above are taken today after day two, so sides are done.

Sunday's day off, Monday teaching, Tuesday finish preparation and possibly test cut the bits, Wednesday fitting. Rain postponed yet again for next Sunday... Not complaining, by this rate, I may just about finish the stbrd side as well before we get a single drop

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, looking on the bright side, at least when the temperature drops, you will have a lot of material for a bonfire

 

[vas]

@rafiki: did that on my previous project, replaced the whole roofing and ended up with enough wood to burn in the fireplace for the following 3yrs!
I only picked up a couple of bags with the thick inner of the 15mm delaminated ply nicely broken in small bits to use it to fire up the logs in the fireplace.
Mind I've got too many things off MiToS stored at home that I'm running out of space for things like logs, cars and pushbikes in the garage...

After an 11h session yestereday together with George managed to complete the port side all the way back to the aft deck. Good enough as rain was predicted for yestereday, didn't materialise and only had a 4min shower an hour ago
Was nicely overcast throughout the day yesterday and I have to say it was the first day that I was wearing a t-shirt throughout. Temps were still 20-25C.

closeup of the cleared frames:

and the mess it produced in the sofa area:

some delamination on the edge of the flooring ply touching the hull. Cleared some of it, will treat it and replace larger sections as appropriate. This is the one responsible for sound isolation and fumes isolation to the engine room, so I'll take a lot of care and possibly remove larger chunks of ply here (if not ending removing the lot and do spare me the jokes with the broom plz )

lots of glue:

and the finished article:

Tomorrow I'll do the preparations for the stbrd side as I need to remove the 2.5m long cabinet with various cupboards without destroying it that is...

Helm roofing fully sealed and all of the f/b floor that I've already paintstripped and sanded was also treated with West. Next photo for rbcoomer with wall-to-wall clouds

Having a hard time getting hold of Clear Penatrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) down here and turns out it's impossible to have such stuff shipped from up north (or anywhere for that mater...) due to their hazardous nature.
My West Epoxy supplies are finishing and although I'm using a thicker epoxy for glueing, I need to get my self ready for treating the keel and other bits below the waterline. Any ideas?
Will use the rest of my West as a coating for new ply and sand it down in May before treating again and laying teak.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Good progress on the decks and F/bridge. it must be satisfying to see some construction rather than destruction.

Can't help with the epoxy, sorry, way out of my comfort zone. If it can't be fixed with Gelcoat filler, then I am no good to you.

Is the epoxy a hazardous substance, or a dangerous goods? They have different connotations until UN OECD regs.

 

[vas]

Good progress on the decks and F/bridge. it must be satisfying to see some construction rather than destruction.

Can't help with the epoxy, sorry, way out of my comfort zone. If it can't be fixed with Gelcoat filler, then I am no good to you.

only gelcoated bits of MiToS are the engine vents and the two exhaust covers and judging from the itch I get everytime I touch glassfibre I'm happy I wont need to deal with it for a long time...

Is the epoxy a hazardous substance, or a dangerous goods? They have different connotations until UN OECD regs.

One I got hold of its specifications is this (suggested by littleship )

Turns out that I have to get hold of that stuff locally in Greece. Didn't have time to search properly, will do now. I need to check the sites of the original companies producing such stuff for Greek dealers.

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

Following all this with interest Vas and enjoying this thread. I admire the thoroughness of your work. You're going to have a beautiful yacht when you're finished

 

[vas]

thanks jfm, she'll be nice, heavily customised for my needs (or what I consider them to be atm!) and I'll definitely know my way around her for the forseable future

Today most day was spent removing and loading the stbrd side saloon cabinet to George's car. To be stored, refurbed and lacquered over winter and to be added back in MiToS when the time is right.

OK, wasn't an easy task. Bleeding thing was around 80kg and fairly awkward to deal with. Removed all cabinet doors and drawers (to reduce some of the weight...) and finaly were only 4 screws holding the whole lot in place! Two under the lower helm seat and another two at the aft end of the cabinet.

For sure it's not coming back that big! lowering it down to the ground was let's say "interesting" Me on the the f/b with a thick rope holding the heaviest part of the cabinet, George on a temp scaffolding leading it down, at some point it STUCK on the fiberglass exhaust cover and had to wiggle it about, eventually after 20mins got it down to the ground, phew!

Just considering adding a two seater sofa (1.4m wide) on the stbrd side instead of the 3 550mm narrow cabinets. I find the 3 cabinets full of glasses and cups a bit extreme and I'm sure I can get them stored in a more space efficient way. Idea is to keep the 5 drawers towards the helm bulkhead and replace the four cupboards with 1 fridge towards the bow where the height is larger and I could shove it half way under the deck and a two seater sofa. Odd plan is to use the section under the sofa towards the fridge for glassware cabinet (possibly two LARGE drawers under the seating) sliding out and revealing lots of glasses/cups) and the other half of the sofa for storing life vests (got 10 onboard and they aren't currently in an easily accessible place - under the galley floor!)

Having another look at the saloon flooring and I'm definitly going to replace the lot! It is secured on iroco frames and although the frames are perfect the flooring is a right mess! Will give me to oportunity to sort out the soundproofing on the floor to hull detail and think about the final flooring material: Carpet in hot med climate is absurd, would be nice to have a teak floor a la Bart Canados, but I have 4 hatches to the engines on the saloon floor and I'm not sure it does make sense

Try to figure out what's happening on the following pic:

And finally the following pic shows the routing of the diesel towards the tanks. I'm thinking of replacing the flex bit and it's loop.. Mind is this loop useful for anything? I've got my ideas but would like to know what the others think.

Ah, bearing in mind that I still cannot find any penetrating epoxy down here and reading on various ppl sites/blogs on the characteristics and contents of this elusive Clear Penetrating Epoxy Seal I made some myself as suggested by diluting 50-80% of the volume of West Epoxy mix with isopropyl alcohol. Was really impressed at it's much thinner and seems to penetrate much more into ply and iroco.
Knackered, going to bed...


cheers

V.

 

[vas]

hm,

was told and just found the site of a company called Fibermaxcomposites
Their list of materials is rather long and needs a bit of studying.
The amazing thing is that these guys have offices/fab/retail in a village 5km from Volos, and their depot is 3km from MiToS
Will do my studying and pay them a visit next week.
Looks like 6780slow is what could do for starters, but need to check and especially figure out UV stability, what primer and top coat is suitable for all that.

any opinions appreciated!

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

YAU (or yet another update...)

finished stripping the stbrd side deck all the way back to the aft deck.
Suprisingly, there was a lot of water damage nicely covered by the saloon cabinet so no remedial action was taken by the previous owner. Although his actions were mainly stuffing the place with white silicone (from the inside!) so tbh wouldn't be of much help Note the marked to be removed area of the ending of the superstructure to the deck. Apparently the ss through bolt rusted, rot affected the 35X90 iroko beam and when I was removing the outer ply bit (soon after the photo was taken) the iroko came along... So George is preparing a new piece for this section.

Have a feeling that a sheet or two of 1250X2500mm ply will be needed on the stbrd side and that's above the waterline!

Frames are ok except for one horizontal member that needs strengthening on the offside.

George finished working on the port side patch where the superstructure was ending and rotting together with the deck. A 5 level job with inner frame of iroko, followed by supports for the inner and outer ply skin and finished with a thin strip completing the ending to the aft deck. Looks very nice and extremely strong and solid Probably took 200ml of epoxy to do as well and two dozen inox countersunk 4X50 and 5X50. Level four is shown in the following pics before glueing the cap today.

Plan is to let the stbrd side frames dry (from the dampness gathered there over the two short showers we had last week-kept covered this week) do all the preparations tomorrow and cover it up on Friday.

Gives me enough space and access to tackle the leaking steering separator box or whatever you call this thing: Has two copper pipes bringing fluid down from the flybridge, and under it are two T-pieces going aft to the pump and bringing the lower helm fluid on the other side. Turns out that the top racor (is that how you call them?) on the one T is leaking (A LOT!) All cables under there are a right oily mess, but on the positive side, ply around there hasn't delaminated and looks brand oily new . Maybe I should bathe the whole hull in steering fluid oil Definitely cheaper than penetrating epoxy...

Managed to get the short pipe to the tee from the bottom of this separator box out and will check it out later on at home. Needless to say that without the deck out, this was an unbelievable job to do as I'd started it during spring and left it untouched since! So one of the good side products of stripping the whole boat to pieces...

Weather again luckily too good with temps up to 30 and enough sunshine to make it difficult, but I'm not complaining for this week. I will complain if it goes on like that during November as I want to work on the hull outside and I need cool weather and a few clouds

cheers

V.

 

[LittleShip]

bearing in mind that I still cannot find any penetrating epoxy down here and reading on various ppl sites/blogs on the characteristics and contents of this elusive Clear Penetrating Epoxy Seal I made some myself as suggested by diluting 50-80% of the volume of West Epoxy mix with isopropyl alcohol. Was really impressed at it's much thinner and seems to penetrate much more into ply and iroco.
Knackered, going to bed...

Well done on making some CPES....... dont be tempted to put her back together without liberal coats to seal the ply.

One little tip when replacing ply... try and get an overlap that can be glued together, it maks a much stronger joint than butt joints filled with epoxy.

Keep up the good work I'll let you see what was done to Little Ship one day.

Tom

 

[vas]

Tom,

yes, no deck ply joint is done without an at least 150mm wide piece of ply underneath for the full length of the joint. Both pieces are glued/bolted to this strip. I also used in 4places 250mm wide original joining strips so I'm confident that it's ok.

Also, finally got proper CPES locally from Fibermaxcomposites I mentioned in a previous post! Guy is brilliant, knows his stuff, spend a couple of hours at his office last week explaining what I'm doing and getting advice and got a 5lt CPES for 110euro plus 5lt normal wood epoxy for another 110euro. So for the price I paid five months ago for 6lt of West systems epoxy from the official Greek dealer I now got 10lt of epoxy 5km away from home No doubt where I'm going to get the rest of my supplies...

Finished the gunwales at last! But I've just realised i've not got a bow looking back photo that covers the lot to prove it, just trust me

Next photo shows some interesting damage which was part of water ingress and part of my stupidity when I was paintstripping with the heatgun and effectively put the inner bits on fire... Nice one. George is replacing the inner vertical column thing and builting on top layer by layer. Straight forward but takes time:

Next one shows the almost finished article with glue everywhere just before fitting the final piece of ply:

Once the whole of the gunwale was replaced I started working on sealing the whole of the superstructure before the rains kick in. So Fri and Sat spend a few hours sanding with 40 and 60 grit on my 150mm dia orbital festool sander the whole of the superstructure. That's bloody lot of sanding I'm telling you...
Leaving the sundeck untouched (already coated twice with west systems epoxy) I used 2.5lt of CPES on two coats on the helm roof, port side and 1 coat on the stbrd side. Doing a v.light sanding with 60grit between coats to smooth it a bit and open up the pores for more epoxy.
Looks like I could be painting CPES the whole week (one coat a day as it's slow curing epoxy that has better penetrating properties) and use another 5-7lt of CPES on the super structure.
Then I'll have to do the same with the newly installed decks (some are west systems coated the later bits are with CPES) and finish with sika rubber thing at the seam between the new deck and superstructure.
Once the wood is thoroughly soaked, I'll get a couple of coats of the "normal" marine wood epoxy to seal it properly. I'm planning to ask the guy if there's a possibility of using some pigment on this top coat so that I can get a feel of the colours I want to use and make it slightly easier on spotting areas that need filler for the final top coat. Since I'll be "playing" with tones of gray for the superstructure I'm going to investigate on availability of such pigments for the marine epoxy.

Wed onwards will start stripping the aft deck which is in a right mess. Further the previous owner added new sidepanels on top of the original ones making a mess out of shorepower port and all other ports and detailing around the aft deck. So will have to start with stripping the sidepanels before messing with the actual deck. At least it's easy to cover (mostly covered already!) if it rains (unlikely from the current weather forecast for this week)

More photos of the darkened soaked plywood superstructure tomorrow

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Good to see the progress Vas.

if I were you, I'd be tempted to get some of your final year students on the "project"

 

[BartW]

Well done on making some CPES....... dont be tempted to put her back together without liberal coats to seal the ply.

One little tip when replacing ply... try and get an overlap that can be glued together, it maks a much stronger joint than butt joints filled with epoxy.

Keep up the good work I'll let you see what was done to Little Ship one day.

Tom

Vas, Tom,

is this sufficient to get a complete water sealed deck, underneath the teak ?

On Blue Angel, I still suffer a few small leaks from water through the teak, and then finding its way to the rooms underneath,

I'm considering within a few years to replace the teak but first place a layer of GRP underneath, or is there another solution for 100% deck water sealing on a wooden boat ?

 

[LittleShip]

I'm considering within a few years to replace the teak but first place a layer of GRP underneath, or is there another solution for 100% deck water sealing on a wooden boat ?

Bart , I have a Teak deck and I have to say I'm a fan of teak.

If you are removing the teak I would suggest epoxy coating (not GRP...polyester) and then one of the teak look a like products stuck down on it. If you have ply on the deck, sealing it with a good amount of CPES will provide a barrier to water ingress.

The biggest problem with teak is keeping it sealed any method which has a physical fastening iwill provide a point of entry for water if it isnt looked after. I have several plugs and seams on my deck that I will be repairing this winter.

If I was to remove my teak (as much as I like it) I think I would be tempted to seal with CEPS, cover with epoxy matting and "stick" one of the look a like products on it. That said I still dont think that anything can beat a real teak deck for safety underfoot.

Hope this helps

Tom

PS. If you are suggesting putting CEPS over a teak deck to seal it I would say NO !

 

[BartW]

Bart , I have a Teak deck and I have to say I'm a fan of teak.

If you are removing the teak I would suggest epoxy coating (not GRP...polyester) and then one of the teak look a like products stuck down on it. If you have ply on the deck, sealing it with a good amount of CPES will provide a barrier to water ingress.

The biggest problem with teak is keeping it sealed any method which has a physical fastening iwill provide a point of entry for water if it isnt looked after. I have several plugs and seams on my deck that I will be repairing this winter.

If I was to remove my teak (as much as I like it) I think I would be tempted to seal with CEPS, cover with epoxy matting and "stick" one of the look a like products on it. That said I still dont think that anything can beat a real teak deck for safety underfoot.

Hope this helps

Tom

PS. If you are suggesting putting CEPS over a teak deck to seal it I would say NO !

Tom,

sorry, I wasn't very clear,
I'm a teak fan aswell, and I hate "any" look a like product,
Plan was to take out the old teac, and replace with new,
but have a sealing epoxy or anything else underneath the new teak,
so therefor I was considering GRP underneath the new teak,
what do you think is the best solution (what do professionals do) to make teak (or the layer underneath) 100% sealed

you mention epoxy matting ?
is this similar to the glass fabrics ?

 

[LittleShip]

Tom,
you mention epoxy matting ?
is this similar to the glass fabrics ?

Epoxy matting looks like a woven fabric rather than chopped fibreglass.

The method these days seems to be to seal the base if it's ply with epoxy and matting and then stick the new teak down on to it, that way there are no holes through the ply to allow water ingress. You can however still get water under the teak if the chaulking isnt maintained.

If your deck is GRP then seal all holes and again stick down the new teak.

I never use Polyester on my boat I only use Epoxy, mind you she is wood

Tom

 

[BartW]

You can however still get water under the teak if the chaulking isnt maintained.

I think that's my problem now, I believe you can never have 100% sealed teak/caulking, especially not old one,
and the old teac isn't well enough fixed anymore on the old plywood underlayer. so there is a space for water to find its way...

If your deck is GRP then seal all holes and again stick down the new teak.

no its old plywood

I never use Polyester on my boat I only use Epoxy

I ve seen using the Italian rebuilders sort of fabric and collorless treatment on the new steps side walls and gunwale repairs,
I thought it was GRP, will asc them, perhaps its epoxy + matting (?)

 

[MapisM]

The method these days seems to be to seal the base if it's ply with epoxy and matting and then stick the new teak down on to it

When I discussed that with a wooden boat builder (quite some years ago, though), he told me that this could be a recipe for a disaster.
Fwiw, according to him, it's unavoidable that with the frequent temperature and humidity variations any boat is bound to deal with, some moisture builds up inside that plywood deck encapsulation, even assuming that no rain water finds its way inside it.
On the other hand, this moisture will not dry out as easily as it could do with a normal ("non-encapsulated") wooden deck, and this could quickly lead to rotting the plywood and the frames supporting it, thus eventually needing a complete deck rebuild...!

I'm interested to hear your view on this, anyway.
Maybe nowadays there are materials available which can keep moisture formation at bay?