Mayday - MOB - Number of Persons Aboard

[laika]

I have no idea whether the CG have access to SafeTrax; it is operated by the RYA (I thinkl) and was intended to replace CG66 while providing added functionality, so I'd guess they do, but I don't know for sure.

For clarity, my references to CG66 were past tense. I believe the data remained accessible for a while after the scheme ended, but it was shut down completely earlier this year (or at least was due to be).

The safetrax data are accessible to HMCG:
RYA SafeTrx | Keep In Touch | Safe Boating | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

safetrx is developed by an irish software company which I believe flogs tailored versions of the software to various organisations. The RYA are the data controller for the purposes of data protection for the instance they own (ie the uk one we're talking about) but when I talked to them about it a couple of years ago they don't actually host the software themselves (they're not the data processor), but whether that's done by the developers or a 3rd party I don't know.

 

[laika]

In other news...I've been googling ITU documents on distress procedure and there's no specific mention of "number of persons": it's just "other information". So I wonder where the "number of persons" thing even comes from?

Today I received a kind reply from the RYA which confirms the ITU as the definitive source. The most up to date version of the radio regulations are available as a free download (the box asking for your details is only required for the print/CD version) here: Radio Regulations 2020
Article 32 in volume 1 gives the official procedure which makes no explicit mention of "number of persons", only "other information", though clearly number of persons is quite possibly relevant "other information" and besides, for many of us that will be rote learned. Number of persons on board *may* be a hangover from an earlier iteration of the procedure.

Currently the original question is a non-question as there is of course flexibility in "other information" to clarify as necessary.

 

[westhinder]

Thanks for that.
You see, this is my big beef with the new, officially recommended, proceedure: the introduction of bureaucratic strings of meaningless letters and numbers (worthless if a single mistake is made or there's a glitch in transmission).
We are meant to recite all that data ***BEFORE GIVING OUR POSITION*** which to me is utterly ludicrous and definitely dangerous.
By all means, pass it over after, or as part of, Any Other Info at the end.

Absolutely agree.
I have listened in despair to Coast Guard operators stubbornly sticking to their procedure and wasting valuable time both for the rescue side and for the person calling who could be helping to solve the situation. In many (most?) cases the person on the vhf will be the skipper who also drives the boat and manages the emergency.

 

[NormanS]

Absolutely agree.
I have listened in despair to Coast Guard operators stubbornly sticking to their procedure and wasting valuable time both for the rescue side and for the person calling who could be helping to solve the situation. In many (most?) cases the person on the vhf will be the skipper who also drives the boat and manages the emergency.

I quite agree. Let him get the essential message across, and then let him get on with the situation, instead of an interrogation as to whether everyone on board is wearing a lifejacket.

 

[lustyd]

The MMSI is just there to link the voice call to the DSC call which you should do first as it has better range and better info. If you miss it they'd likely work it out from the conversation. Either way the CG aren't just chatting away, it's likely they're organising rescue services behind the scenes on another channel.
I'm extremely dubious about the claim from westhinder about the CG sticking to their script despite an ongoing mayday. That doesn't align with anything I've seen or heard from the CG especially in emergency situations.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have listened in despair to Coast Guard operators stubbornly sticking to their procedure and wasting valuable time both for the rescue side and for the person calling who could be helping to solve the situation. In many (most?) cases the person on the vhf will be the skipper who also drives the boat and manages the emergency.

Last time I called the coastguard, to report a hazard and not because I was in any danger at all, they were very keen to know if everyone on board was wearing a lifejacket.

 

[Gary Fox]

Last time I called the coastguard, to report a hazard and not because I was in any danger at all, they were very keen to know if everyone on board was wearing a lifejacket.

Some might say: They are not proper coastguards, who know the area and have actually sailed a vessel; all that has long gone.. these days, as you drown, you're talking at cross purposes to shiny-@rsed call-centre button-pushers, working from a rejected fire station in Fareham on minimum wage.
Although I had an HMCG skipper on a roughish delivery, and he was a tough and cheerful skipper, the sort who you would go anywhere with, and he would never have asked for your MMSI before your position!

 

[lustyd]

You don't think there are sailors in Fareham?

 

[Gary Fox]

You don't think there are sailors in Fareham?

If they are 'sailors', they won't be asking for your MMSI, International Call Sign, and your inside leg measurement in centimetres, before your position.

 

[Sandy]

Last time I called the coastguard, to report a hazard and not because I was in any danger at all, they were very keen to know if everyone on board was wearing a lifejacket.

Next time I call, I'll state that I have a "small bubble" on board all wearing lifejackets.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Some might say: They are not proper coastguards, who know the area and have actually sailed a vessel

A lot of them that I know are boating people. Although some are ex Royal Navy, which I suppose really doesn't count.

 

[westhinder]

I'm extremely dubious about the claim from westhinder about the CG sticking to their script despite an ongoing mayday. That doesn't align with anything I've seen or heard from the CG especially in emergency situations.

I’m afraid I heard the same pattern on several occasions last summer: a CG operator who stuck religiously to his script and by the way he handled it, he demonstrated he had no real grasp of what was happening on board.
Judging by the numerous threads about CG radio procedures the past couple of years I am not the only one to have remarked that.

 

[Uricanejack]

There were quite a fe few threads which involved closing of local GC centres and centralised replacement. I am sympathetic to those who were adversely impacted.
What the experience or qualifications of the new operators in the new call centres is I have no idea.
I can understand a loss of local knowledge.
They use a check list to ensure. Nothing important is missed. Some of the questions asked may not be directly relevant to a particular situation. Which doesn’t mean they are not relevant to others.
Some questions. Are reminders to the subject of the call.
Eg does everyone have a life jacket on. Might seem obvious to some or most of us.
It might be a critical reminder to a relatively inexperienced boater.
So the check list includes the question.
Other like do you have an anchor ready to deploy.
Similar.
nothing wrong with a calm voice on the radio giving reminders of actions which could be taken.

like others I have my personal opinions.
One of which is please include a geographic reference where possible.

Why as a potential responder. It will quickly have meaning to me where a Lat Long doesn’t in fact I will useual have to go find a pencil and paper and wait for a repeat before I can plot it to see if it’s near by
Vast majority I hear are GPS.
there again the GPS is much more precise . Probably easier for a central operator to enter with a key board
Plus they probably have a pencil.
Personal opinion. After mayday give position JIK we don’t here the rest. At least we will know where to start looking.
Even if it’s not the official correct order I doubt anyone will complain.
Same with the MOB person included or not. MOB is a special situation.

Otherwise persons on board is important. Just so they know how many to look for.

 

[Stemar]

I've no idea if it's the case, but I do wonder if the coastie sticking stubbornly to the "right" order of things is because these days, it's all entered into a computer and the system makes it difficult to change the order. All the same I can't imagine that "Help, I'm 3 miles south of St Catherine's head and sinking" won't get a lifeboat on its way. Anyone with that much of a call centre mentality has no business outside the Microsoft Delhi scam centre.

 

[Topcat47]

I heard an interesting discussion in my yacht club bar just before Xmas. Apparently Pan Pan calls are out and Mayday is used for non-life threatening situations as well as dire emergencies. It's a year or 20 since I did my Radio course and my old almanac is on the boat which I can't visit due to lockdown. This thread brought it to mind and while I realise this may be considered a "thread hijack", does anyone know the current correct procedure? It'll be an "ear worm" for me until I can find out for sure. Before anyone says "google it", I have and both got a mention in the top three responses but nothing came in from an "official" website.

 

[Topcat47]

I've no idea if it's the case, but I do wonder if the coastie sticking stubbornly to the "right" order of things is because these days, it's all entered into a computer and the system makes it difficult to change the order. All the same I can't imagine that "Help, I'm 3 miles south of St Catherine's head and sinking" won't get a lifeboat on its way. Anyone with that much of a call centre mentality has no business outside the Microsoft Delhi scam centre.

With the closure of "local" coastguard stations, it is very likely that the radio operator on the other end of the message will not associated "St Catherine's Head" with the IOW unprompted and may not alert the crooesct lifeboat station. I have been in the position of trying to explain to a "central 999 switchboard" where "South Harting" in Hampshire is simply because the operator on the other end of the phone was in Manchester and didn't even know where Hampshire was. Somehow it was my fault for knowing the local geography without knowing the postcode of the accident site. (the GPS in my car couldn't work back from my current position to the postcode).

 

[AntarcticPilot]

With the closure of "local" coastguard stations, it is very likely that the radio operator on the other end of the message will not associated "St Catherine's Head" with the IOW unprompted and may not alert the crooesct lifeboat station. I have been in the position of trying to explain to a "central 999 switchboard" where "South Harting" in Hampshire is simply because the operator on the other end of the phone was in Manchester and didn't even know where Hampshire was. Somehow it was my fault for knowing the local geography without knowing the postcode of the accident site. (the GPS in my car couldn't work back from my current position to the postcode).

There's also the problem of duplicate place names. Saints names are very likely to be duplicated; Scottish Gaelic names are often descriptive and frequently duplicated, on these fora I've had to ask which Yarmouth people meant (the insignificant village on the Solent, or the major city in Norfolk - guess which a non-local person will guess first!). Place names in the UK are a very unreliable way to indicate location.

 

[Sandy]

I heard an interesting discussion in my yacht club bar just before Xmas. Apparently Pan Pan calls are out and Mayday is used for non-life threatening situations as well as dire emergencies.

It must be different in Lake Solent, I heard several Pan Pan calls last summer. All dealt with in an efficient manner by the Coast Guard.

 

[Gary Fox]

I heard an interesting discussion in my yacht club bar just before Xmas. Apparently Pan Pan calls are out and Mayday is used for non-life threatening situations as well as dire emergencies. It's a year or 20 since I did my Radio course and my old almanac is on the boat which I can't visit due to lockdown. This thread brought it to mind and while I realise this may be considered a "thread hijack", does anyone know the current correct procedure? It'll be an "ear worm" for me until I can find out for sure. Before anyone says "google it", I have and both got a mention in the top three responses but nothing came in from an "official" website.

The yacht club bar, before Christmas might be an unreliable source of information..

 

[Sandy]

With the closure of "local" coastguard stations, it is very likely that the radio operator on the other end of the message will not associated "St Catherine's Head" with the IOW unprompted and may not alert the crooesct lifeboat station. I have been in the position of trying to explain to a "central 999 switchboard" where "South Harting" in Hampshire is simply because the operator on the other end of the phone was in Manchester and didn't even know where Hampshire was. Somehow it was my fault for knowing the local geography without knowing the postcode of the accident site. (the GPS in my car couldn't work back from my current position to the postcode).

Having a lat and long is really helpful for helicopter crews:

1. Caernarfon
2. Humberside
3. Inverness
4. Lee-On-Solent
5. Lydd
6. Newquay
7. Prestwick
8. St Athan
9. Stornoway
10. Sumburgh

With so few stations, I've highlighted the three on the south coast, they really need a lat and long.


https://assets.publishing.service.g...76/sarh-statistics-year-ending-march-2019.pdf

A fascinating document.