Daydream believer
Well-known member
Then in the morning you struggled to recall their name
Marina rules around automatic bilge pumps.
- Thread starter dtynan
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Daydream believer
Well-known member
My first one was brand new & that as far as I can recall, did not leak when first launched.
They launched my second one, 30 years later, after I completed a major refurb (stripped it to hull & deck beams) & when I went to collect the keys a week later they congratulated me. They said it was the first time that they had ever launched one that did not leak. There was still dry sawdust in the bilges.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
James Watt Dock Marina has this clause in its conditions, and they're serious about it - it's a condition of their use of the dock (which is a heritage structure operated by Clydeport). Similarly, fuel must only be handled at the fuel dock, where cleanup facilities are available - no refuelling from cans at your berth.
Snowgoose-1
Well-known member
It would make a good thread . "Your worst calls from a boat yard".
I had one saying that my boat was stranded half way up the sea wall at Bradwell. It included that the riser was still attached as a comforter.
Jim@sea
Well-known member
This is what happens in a marina if an automatic bilge pump is not switched on.
I looked at a boat in a Marina which was for sale. The boat was supposably being looked after by a local boatyard. When I pulled the engine oil dipstick out the colour of the engine oil was white indicating that there was water in the oil. The engine started very well and the person from the boatyard took me out to sea for a sea trial where the engine stopped working and we had to be towed back. Air in the diesel.
After I bought it I found the boat had a badly drained cockpit and during heavy rain water would get into the bilges.
To counter that an automatic bilge pump had been fitted, two batteries and a battery charger plugged into an electric point on the pontoon.
I believe another boat owner had removed the plug from the marina pontoon power point, for a time and when replaced it the RCB had tripped, the battery charger no longer kept the batteries topped up, with the result that the automatic bilge pump no longer worked. Over a period of time the water in the bilge kept rising, and when it reached the point where the dipstick went into the dipstick hole water started to enter the sump, oil then would have started to float on top of the water and spread. The starter motor was filled with this white oil mix.
And of course when the boatyard had flicked the electrics back on by resetting the RCB the bilge pump would have been pumping out into the water of the marina a mixture of water and oil. although one would hope that they mopped it up internally.
If this boatyard also sold parachutes I bet nobody would want to jump out of a plane with one.
I looked at a boat in a Marina which was for sale. The boat was supposably being looked after by a local boatyard. When I pulled the engine oil dipstick out the colour of the engine oil was white indicating that there was water in the oil. The engine started very well and the person from the boatyard took me out to sea for a sea trial where the engine stopped working and we had to be towed back. Air in the diesel.
After I bought it I found the boat had a badly drained cockpit and during heavy rain water would get into the bilges.
To counter that an automatic bilge pump had been fitted, two batteries and a battery charger plugged into an electric point on the pontoon.
I believe another boat owner had removed the plug from the marina pontoon power point, for a time and when replaced it the RCB had tripped, the battery charger no longer kept the batteries topped up, with the result that the automatic bilge pump no longer worked. Over a period of time the water in the bilge kept rising, and when it reached the point where the dipstick went into the dipstick hole water started to enter the sump, oil then would have started to float on top of the water and spread. The starter motor was filled with this white oil mix.
And of course when the boatyard had flicked the electrics back on by resetting the RCB the bilge pump would have been pumping out into the water of the marina a mixture of water and oil. although one would hope that they mopped it up internally.
If this boatyard also sold parachutes I bet nobody would want to jump out of a plane with one.
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NormanS
Well-known member
Did you think it was wise to go out for a sea trial when you knew that there was water in the engine oil?
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Regarding stern glands that are supposed to drip. When in port, or leaving the boat, you turn the greaser cock down a half turn, or whatever, and the grease seals the void stopping the drip. It doesn’t have to drip all the time when the boat is untended.
Refueler
Well-known member
Having suffered the consequences of not having auto-pump ... I would be loathe to use a Marina that outlaws auto-pump .... to me - auto-bilge pump is in that arena bordering into safety.
There are many reasons a boat can start to fill up with water - mine was blocked cockpit drains allowing rainwater to collect and then overwhelm the bilge partitions. This led to cabin flooding and engine sump submerged.
The engine ~2 weeks later seized even though we'd injected oil / dispersants / changed oil etc ... wracking up a 3K repair bill replacing the engine with a 2nd hand ...
The cabin bulkheads and partitions survived longer than expected - finally crumbling when we had the keel repairs to do last year.
People ask why Marina didn't do anything while I was away ......... simple answer :
If Marina staff enter or operate any item on a boat - then they can be liable for any consequences. Marina's do not enter boats unless its purely safety .. such as breaking moorings etc. It is owners responsibility to ensure their boat is suitably maintained in its position / status.
I read odd where Marina Staff have kindly attended to a boat - but that really is exception ... and must have been based on possibility of serious escalation if not resolved.
There are many reasons a boat can start to fill up with water - mine was blocked cockpit drains allowing rainwater to collect and then overwhelm the bilge partitions. This led to cabin flooding and engine sump submerged.
The engine ~2 weeks later seized even though we'd injected oil / dispersants / changed oil etc ... wracking up a 3K repair bill replacing the engine with a 2nd hand ...
The cabin bulkheads and partitions survived longer than expected - finally crumbling when we had the keel repairs to do last year.
People ask why Marina didn't do anything while I was away ......... simple answer :
If Marina staff enter or operate any item on a boat - then they can be liable for any consequences. Marina's do not enter boats unless its purely safety .. such as breaking moorings etc. It is owners responsibility to ensure their boat is suitably maintained in its position / status.
I read odd where Marina Staff have kindly attended to a boat - but that really is exception ... and must have been based on possibility of serious escalation if not resolved.
Refueler
Well-known member
Shame I did not photograph my boat seriously down in the water ... I mean SERIOUSLY down ....
Here she is at normal state alongside pontoon :
Now imagine same boat - same pontoon with boat down so far that middle guard wire is level with pontoon ...
It was lucky that the sink outlet hull valve was closed otherwise she would have had that pouring in as well.
That boat after that and all boats I have in fact - have Auto-Bilge pumps powered and active - except in dead of winter where freezing occurs and any residual water can destroy the pump ... its switched off and lifted clear then.
Stemar
Well-known member
I don't too much care about an arse-covering rule. I'm leaving my automatic pumps on. Right now, they don't run until I switch them on manually about once a month, and then only pump for a few seconds. I know the pumps won't save the boat if a through-hull or hose fails, but stern glands have been known to, and the pumps would give me a bit of breathing space.
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
The real questions that if a marina has a no auto pump rule and your boat sinks due to rainwater ingress the marina would be liable for any damage and cost of recovery.
The same if a boat gets damaged due to the mooring breaks up and sinks or damages the boat like what happened to mine several years ago.
In my case being a steel boat the only real damage was to the paintwork and my anodes prevented further corrosion
The same if a boat gets damaged due to the mooring breaks up and sinks or damages the boat like what happened to mine several years ago.
In my case being a steel boat the only real damage was to the paintwork and my anodes prevented further corrosion
Refueler
Well-known member
[/QUOTE]
I don't think that can apply. The argument would be why owner did not make provision to safeguard boat against such eventuality ?
Cost of recovery - "Wreck Recovery" is the usual term - is usually a required part of owners insurance to get a marina mooring. That's why even 3rd Party only Ins usually has this included.
Only if the Marina equipment failed - if its owners ropes / cleats etc - then Marina is not at fault in any form.
If damage to another boat due to failure of another boats gear - then its Owner to Owner claim ...
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
I don't think that can apply. The argument would be why owner did not make provision to safeguard boat against such eventuality?
Cost of recovery - "Wreck Recovery" is the usual term - is usually a required part of owner's insurance to get a marina mooring. That's why even 3rd Party only Ins usually has this included.
[/QUOTE]
My argument would be that an automatic bilge pump is part of my provision to prevent the boat from sinking
[QUITE]
Only if the Marina equipment failed - if its owners' ropes / cleats etc - then Marina is not at fault in any form.
If damage to another boat due to failure of another boats gear - then its Owner-to-Owner claim ...
[/QUOTE]
I agree if it's the owner's lines but if it's the marinas equipment then it's the fault of the marina not to maintain the marina equipment
One issue is that marinas tend to a a blanket disclaimer and the owner would have to fight the marina who have all the power and control
Cost of recovery - "Wreck Recovery" is the usual term - is usually a required part of owner's insurance to get a marina mooring. That's why even 3rd Party only Ins usually has this included.
[/QUOTE]
My argument would be that an automatic bilge pump is part of my provision to prevent the boat from sinking
[QUITE]
Only if the Marina equipment failed - if its owners' ropes / cleats etc - then Marina is not at fault in any form.
If damage to another boat due to failure of another boats gear - then its Owner-to-Owner claim ...
[/QUOTE]
I agree if it's the owner's lines but if it's the marinas equipment then it's the fault of the marina not to maintain the marina equipment
One issue is that marinas tend to a a blanket disclaimer and the owner would have to fight the marina who have all the power and control
Momac
Well-known member
I don't know about anyone else but I think it's quite normal for an automatic bilge pump to be wired to be live all the time even with the battery isolator switches off. Modifying this arrangement would give insurers a potential reason to invalidate insurance in the event of a claim.
I doubt marinas are going to accept liability if a boat sinks or is damaged due to water ingress due to the marinas requirement to disconnect automatic bilge pump. Therefore I would ignore any such bilge pump ban.
The worst case scenario is the marina pursues the boat owner for recovery of costs for any clean up after a pollution incident . But given the pollution is an accident and not a deliberate or irresponsible act that's why we have insurance.
I doubt marinas are going to accept liability if a boat sinks or is damaged due to water ingress due to the marinas requirement to disconnect automatic bilge pump. Therefore I would ignore any such bilge pump ban.
The worst case scenario is the marina pursues the boat owner for recovery of costs for any clean up after a pollution incident . But given the pollution is an accident and not a deliberate or irresponsible act that's why we have insurance.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
I don't get this insistence on automatic bilge-pumps. A properly maintained boat will not make enough water to sink her under any reasonable circumstances, and there are well-documented circumstances where automatic bilge-pumps have contributed to a sinking by hiding a leak that should have been fixed; sinking occurring when the automatic bilge-pump failed either because batteries were exhausted or shore power interrupted - indeed, someone earlier in this thread gave an example!
I have a conventional stuffing box, so there is a tiny amount of water coming in from that. But it is far from enough to ever need more than a few strokes of the bilge-pump to clear it.
If enough water is coming in to justify an automatic bilge-pump, then something needs fixing - and it isn't a bilge-pump.
I have a conventional stuffing box, so there is a tiny amount of water coming in from that. But it is far from enough to ever need more than a few strokes of the bilge-pump to clear it.
If enough water is coming in to justify an automatic bilge-pump, then something needs fixing - and it isn't a bilge-pump.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
If you’re talking about conventional cruisers, motor or sail, or even daft trimarans, sure. Our DF bilge pump is left on, but it has as far as I’m aware, never run in anger. We test it occasionally, to check it's still there. But about half the boats in our harbour are essentially open. RIBs, dayboats etc. If your auto pump fails with one of those, you are literally sunk. And it happens fairly regularly.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
I guess that's true. But how did such craft manage before automatic bilge pumps existed? And most day boats don't have a reliable power supply for such things. When my father owned a converted lifeboat, which had a non-self-draining cockpit, I think the cockpit was covered when the boat was left. Apologies for the vagueness - I was about 10 at the time, 60-odd years ago!
Whatever, it is the case that some marinas ban automatic bilge pumps for reasons that are out of their control. At JWDM it is a condition of their use of the dock, and I can imagine other scenarios such as a fresh-water marina with a lock being required to ban them by the Environment Agency. You can't RELY on being able to use them.
Refueler
Well-known member
My argument would be that an automatic bilge pump is part of my provision to prevent the boat from sinking ,.....
I totally agree and would be my stand as well. As I said earlier - with many boats not self-draining for whatever reason - then it becomes a borderline safety item IMHO.
I agree if it's the owner's lines but if it's the marinas equipment then it's the fault of the marina not to maintain the marina equipment
One issue is that marinas tend to a a blanket disclaimer and the owner would have to fight the marina who have all the power and control
Again I agree - but as with many things in life - Big Brother holds out against the wee folk - waiting for us to give up the fight. My action would be to have a quiet word with marina ... if no joy - straight to Insurance Co ... no delays or messing ...
thinwater
Well-known member
Pump freezing: In fact, I live in an area where it gets seriously cold (-14C last night) and I have never heard of a bilge pump in the water freezing. The water under the hull is above freezing and the water in the bilge will stay very close to that same temperature. What can happen is the discharge can freeze if it has either low spots or a check valve, both of which are scrupulously avoided in cold climates. I have seen that cause bilge pumps to fail.
Cockpit drainage: There is a very simple, very common reason for the drains to fail in cold climates. Snow and ice. You would think it would thaw before there could be enough rain, but not always. Also leaves. The only sure solution is a cockpit cover. I have known this, in combination with a bilge pump with a loop, to result in sinkings, one of which was in the very next slip. Absolutely, and not a boat maintenance problem per se.
The irony is that every dingy on davits has an automatic bilge pump; you leave the drain open. Most multihulls with outboards have fuel tanks that drain overboard. And as I suggested earlier, I don't know how you could discriminate from boats running AC, heat pump, or refrigeration.
The counter arguments are also interesting. A well-maintained boat won't drip anymore oil in the bilge than, at worst, your car deposits in your driveway. The difference is the rain rinse the later away. Fire is a possibility, but first, it should not be a risk if well-maintained (that slippery term again), and logically, that would mean any powered equipment is a risk, so the boats should not be plugged in at all. Hard to find a logical end to that line of reason, since battery chargers have started fires.
IMO, heaters are far more serious risk, and that is impossible to police.
----
I don't have a dog in the fight.
Cockpit drainage: There is a very simple, very common reason for the drains to fail in cold climates. Snow and ice. You would think it would thaw before there could be enough rain, but not always. Also leaves. The only sure solution is a cockpit cover. I have known this, in combination with a bilge pump with a loop, to result in sinkings, one of which was in the very next slip. Absolutely, and not a boat maintenance problem per se.
The irony is that every dingy on davits has an automatic bilge pump; you leave the drain open. Most multihulls with outboards have fuel tanks that drain overboard. And as I suggested earlier, I don't know how you could discriminate from boats running AC, heat pump, or refrigeration.
The counter arguments are also interesting. A well-maintained boat won't drip anymore oil in the bilge than, at worst, your car deposits in your driveway. The difference is the rain rinse the later away. Fire is a possibility, but first, it should not be a risk if well-maintained (that slippery term again), and logically, that would mean any powered equipment is a risk, so the boats should not be plugged in at all. Hard to find a logical end to that line of reason, since battery chargers have started fires.
IMO, heaters are far more serious risk, and that is impossible to police.
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I don't have a dog in the fight.
Refueler
Well-known member
I have had pumps freeze in bilges while afloat - but mainly when ashore on hard standing.
It depends on the boat when in water ... if the pump is deep down in a fin keel well - then its likely below the lowest level of ice ... BUT if the water in the keel well is FW - it can easily freeze while the SW outside is still not frozen.
|If the pump is in a shallow bilge as many modern boats have ... or a bilge keel boat where again blige is shallow ... it can easily occur.
If you want to save lifting that pump - throw a good dollop of Anti-Freeze in the bilges .... also in the bog !!
It depends on the boat when in water ... if the pump is deep down in a fin keel well - then its likely below the lowest level of ice ... BUT if the water in the keel well is FW - it can easily freeze while the SW outside is still not frozen.
|If the pump is in a shallow bilge as many modern boats have ... or a bilge keel boat where again blige is shallow ... it can easily occur.
If you want to save lifting that pump - throw a good dollop of Anti-Freeze in the bilges .... also in the bog !!