Major incident in the North Sea - ships collide

[RupertW]

See my earlier post referencing the Costa Concordia where the authorities acted within hours/ days.
Your American Indian analogy seems a bit, ahem - - well - - you know.

But acting within days is always the action of an authority who is not interested in finding out the truth or learning from it. You see it again and again in airline crashes in third world countries when usually the issue is far more complex and about aircraft maintenance, poor training, hierarchical culture etc as much as individual pilot error. Just going for the person who apparently caused it means it could happen again if underlying issues aren’t addressed.

Having said all that I instantly disagree with myself about the early arrest of the Alaskan airlines pilot but still expect there to be a large number of missed warning signals before the incident that should be learnt from.

 

[johnalison]

Sorry, pal. No offence was meant. I just don't see the relevance in the context of the current discussion. My wife's mother and sister both had breast cancer so my wife is at high risk and it's always a major concern for us.

The mix-up was caused by the poster’s poor phrasing. He was just making a point about numbers, with 1700 deaths on the road, but when mentioning the marathon failed to write ‘died while running’, which has I think confused some people.

 

[finestgreen]

Why - if they had lights on they are doing far better than some ships I’ve glimpsed at night even in the English Channel.
It‘s one reason I still haven’t got round to installing AIS as it seems like a being optional about whether you appear on radar, so a potentially false sense of awareness of what is around you. Not against it but inherently unreliable around places like the Caribbean and Adriatic where a lot of yachts (and many other craft) routinely switch it off so they can’t be tracked.

We do know for sure that both ships were transmitting AIS, at least, though of course we don't know if either or both received each others

 

[Irish Rover]

The mix-up was caused by the poster’s poor phrasing. He was just making a point about numbers, with 1700 deaths on the road, but when mentioning the marathon failed to write ‘died while running’, which has I think confused some people.

I understood what he meant but couldn't see the relevance, as I said, because I assumed there was no possible issue of culpability in the deaths of the marathon runners.

 

[RupertW]

We do know for sure that both ships were transmitting AIS, at least, though of course we don't know if either or both received each others

In this case yes, my reply was to the statement that AIS off is serious negligence.

 

[Pye_End]

Surely radar is used more by ships than AIS for this sort of thing?

 

[Daydream believer]

AIS being turned on does not necessarily mean that it was giving( or being received as) the correct information. I have seen a situation where a yacht's position was showing on my chart plotter as being in a totally different place to where I could actually see it to be.

 

[B27]

There's a timeline at the bottom of the animation, it's hard to be precise but roughly:

0251 Polsie turns port
0252 Verity turns starboard
0254 Verity turns port
0255 Polsie turns starboard
0257 Tracks overlap and Verity stops moving

That's a pretty short slice of time.
It's a busy area, both ships could have been influenced by the need to avoid others?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

AIS being turned on does not necessarily mean that it was giving( or being received as) the correct information. I have seen a situation where a yacht's position was showing on my chart plotter as being in a totally different place to where I could actually see it to be.

We see this at home too. We can see traffic in the Channel that definitely does not correspond. It must be update times. 10 mins could make a huge difference.

 

[mjcoon]

There's a timeline at the bottom of the animation, it's hard to be precise but roughly:

0251 Polsie turns port
0252 Verity turns starboard
0254 Verity turns port
0255 Polsie turns starboard
0257 Tracks overlap and Verity stops moving

Strictly bad choreography?

 

[srm]

A friend of mine commented about the crewing levels on these ships.
How do they find time to get a proper sleep?

I suspect that this may be a contributing factor, especially in the coaster trade. A day or two full time work unloading/loading for a fast turn around then off to sea as soon as possible and into sea going watches. Repeat every few days . . . .

Before AIS I had an interesting night in the North Sea with an overtaking coaster on a converging course. I started plotting him at 5 miles. At three miles, two miles, and one mile I shone a powerful spot light on him with no response each time. Altered my course to keep a safe distance off. When he was abeam I used the spot light to illuminate the inside of his wheelhouse and could clearly see the deckhead. I concluded that there was no one conscious on the bridge for the last hour or more.

 

[srm]

Surely radar is used more by ships than AIS for this sort of thing?

Good practice would be to cross check using two or more independent "aids to navigation".

Not sure as to the current advice but when I was teaching MN electronic nav aids and running radar simulator courses a MCA Merchant Shipping Notice warned that when AIS data conflicted with own observations the OOW should use own observations for collision avoidance.

However, as indicated in my post above, bridge teams on the short passage coastal trade are typically under great pressure and unfair work loads . . . .

 

[[194224]]

.......... But if its a TSS on a "corner" I can see how confusion could arise in the dark at 3 am in poor weather. Any VHF records would add a lot.

It would appear, to me at least, that the incident did occur at a TSS "corner". Verity moving in the northbound lane (and presumably intended to continue in that direction if going to Immingham) with Polesie having just joined the east west bound lane (towards A Coruña) where the two schemes intersect.
Video reconstruction of the collision between POLESIE and VERITY off the German coast

 

[Supertramp]

It would appear, to me at least, that the incident did occur at a TSS "corner". Verity moving in the northbound lane (and presumably intended to continue in that direction if going to Immingham) with Polesie having just joined the east bound lane (towards A Coruña) where the two schemes intersect.
Video reconstruction of the collision between POLESIE and VERITY off the German coast

That makes it clearer. Still no point guessing what actually went on in terms of decisions and communications. Making a mental note not to go near intersecting TSS like that.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... Every life is equal and there should be as much official attention paid to a few sailors lost with their own ship as passengers on a cruise ship.

Every life is not equal, no matter how much we wish them to be. Actuaries place a monetary value on life and decide the insurance premium. It costs me more to insure for certain offshore operations in the USA than it does offshore Nigeria. You could say that is because the USA value litigation more than Africa, or you could say deaths in Africa are worth less than the USA. Outside of this commercial example, there are plenty of examples where life is not equal; pick your situation, lots of them to choose from past and present.

Sadly, merchant seamen deaths at sea also have along history of being valued less than morality would suggest is correct: from the over insurance of unseaworthy ships that lead to the founding of Lloyds, stopping seafarers wages as soon as they abandoned ship in wartime, to the long fight to have merchant seafarers recognised at the cenotaph. More recently the fisherman's body still in his creel boat in in the Sound of Luing, to the fisherman's body recovered in Loch Fyne because it was politically convenient for Alex Salmond to support that cause.

Many consider themselves more equal than others.

 

[jamie N]

Concerning the sleep and 'off watch' periods, prior to my retirement a couple of years ago, when working on CTV's, coincidentally at Helgoland, I had to maintain a personnel timesheet to ensure that crew working hours stayed within the directive set by the German authorities I believe. I don't think that it was an EU directive. This was to be made available if the German authorities wanted to check it, I was told. It was simple enough to do, and to maintain; we were a 5 person CTV working only daylight hours in and around wind farms.
To run a 24 hours a day operation with only 7 onboard does seem kind of light, although I'm not a merchant mariner, I'm an ROV Pilot who was managing the CTV as a client during ops.
Captain, 1st officer, chief engineer, motorman, a couple of AB's and a cook? Would that be the complement onboard?
Maybe a 2nd officer as well? Still quite light?

 

[srm]

I can recall a small coaster grounding in Shetland that resulted in a court case, probably in the early 90's. The one man in the wheelhouse had a watchkeeping certificate but was also the uncertificated engineer. He was in a passage between islands when an engine room alarm went off. It was potentially serious so he set the autopilot on what he thought would be a safe heading and went down to the engine room. As he was coming back up the vessel ran aground. IIRC he pleaded guilty to leaving the bridge unmanned when on watch.

A similar situation with another small coaster occurred in Norway, I was told about it by the judge who investigated the case. The coaster ran aground at night directly below the lighthouse marking a bend in the sound. The captain/owner was on watch and had fallen asleep with the vessel on autopilot. The vessel was basically crewed by the family and was their home. A case of a day spent working cargo then straight out to the next port.

 

[Stemar]

The captain/owner was on watch and had fallen asleep with the vessel on autopilot.

Don't ships have a bridge alarm that goes off every few minutes to prevent this?

 

[Mudisox]

Don't ships have a bridge alarm that goes off every few minutes to prevent this?

No - do you have one when single handed and if so for how long are the intervals?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

No - do you have one when single handed and if so for how long are the intervals?

Pete Goss says in his book that he would sleep slumped across the winches. That way, the discomfort woke him every 20 mins.