Major incident in the North Sea - ships collide

[PhillM]

Can't see what the marathon has to do with anything but, in all the other fatalities you mention, there's a full police investigation.

I’m running the London marathon for “against breast cancer” so it matters to me. I lost my wife to the horrid disease and I want to try and do something about it. So I care.

 

[finestgreen]

while I take your point, would any of us accept that as a reason not to prosecute a bus driver who's lack of care caused an accident which killed a family member. Would we be happy to put it down to a learning experience for bus drivers generally?

The same principles should apply - the root causes should be investigated and if gross negligence or wilful violation are found then prosecution should follow. Otherwise, it's a learning opportunity

 

[VicS]

I wonder how they do that from a high sided vessel? Do they lower a liferaft ( covered motorised vessel- do not know name) & motor over to collect the MOB then motor back to the host vessel where they get lifted back on.
Or is collection/transfer all done by helicopter?

With this

IONA RB PS Ship Photos | AIS MarineTraffic

 

[oldmanofthehills]

With this

IONA RB PS Ship Photos | AIS MarineTraffic

Not much fun to use in 30mph wind and 3m seas. I guess one uses the rescuing vessel to make a lee, and puts your best crew on the task

 

[VicS]

Not much fun to use in 30mph wind and 3m seas. I guess one uses the rescuing vessel to make a lee, and puts your best crew on the task

Not much fun recovering bodies whatever the weather.
.

 

[srm]

To be pedantic - the MAIB are NOT part of the MCA they are a branch of the Dept of Transport directly. As you say they investigate to learn from accidents not to enable prosecution. Im making the pedantic distinction because MCA inspectors also investigate potential breaches of the Merchant Shipping Act with the specific intention of prosecuting where crimes are identified.

Sorry, I am somewhat out of date then, but retired in 2007 so not surprising. While working I had first hand knowledge of MCA surveyors carrying out two separate MAIB investigations. Now you mention it I think the two roles were separated later to avoid what might be perceived as conflicting responsibilities.

Also, to be pedantic you have put my name above someone else's quote about cars and police investigations - its not something that I wrote, more likely by Irish Rover.

 

[jaminb]

the only positive I can take is that VERITY didn't colide with the P&O vessel that appeared to be on a similar course to the POLESIE. If it had there could have been a much greater loss of lives. All terribly sobering and sad.

 

[ylop]

Also, to be pedantic you have put my name above someone else's quote about cars and police investigations - it’s not something that I wrote, more likely by Irish Rover.

That’s not me! The editor does the attributions automatically- I don’t know why but sometimes if you trim the quotes down it gets confused.

 

[ylop]

while I take your point, would any of us accept that as a reason not to prosecute a bus driver who's lack of care caused an accident which killed a family member. Would we be happy to put it down to a learning experience for bus drivers generally?

The victims (or families) are rarely the best people to select justice. The logic in your example would be - it’s easy to blame the bus driver, but if he was driving too fast because his company pressure him to stick to an impossible timetable, or he was tired because they have shit Rotas, or he couldn’t see your family member because the mirrors are badly positioned for a person their size, or they should have been wearing glasses but their bus inspectors never mentioned it, or they had trained on single deckers and the company switched them to double deckers with no extra training, or countless other scenarios where it’s not quite as simple as a dodgy driver and there’s lessons every company could learn but not necessarily much to be gained by picking on one scapegoat. That doesn’t mean if your “no blame” investigation uncovers something so bad that others couldn’t prosecute but month MAIB and AAIB have run into headaches with admissibility of evidence, and the desire to publish findings that may save lives v prejudice a trial.

To some extent the Glasgow bin lorry crash represents the sort of scenario you are referrring to. Ultimately there was a prosecution but for a much less serious offence, but by electing not to prosecute the fatal accident inquiry was able to highlight problems in reference checks and medical scrutiny of drivers. It would be difficult as a family member not to feel the driver got off far too lightly, but a simple criminal trial would likely never have revealed those systemic issues that could let it happen again. I’d like to think that as a family member I’d see that bigger picture and prefer my loved one’s loss had made a recurrence less likely.

In terms of todays accident in a criminal case it becomes too easy to blame the people who died because they aren’t here to defend themselves. A no blame investigation may be more likely to find all the factors that contributed - because it is very rare that accidents at sea are caused by one single cock up.

 

[Irish Rover]

The victims (or families) are rarely the best people to select justice. The logic in your example would be - it’s easy to blame the bus driver, but if he was driving too fast because his company pressure him to stick to an impossible timetable, or he was tired because they have shit Rotas, or he couldn’t see your family member because the mirrors are badly positioned for a person their size, or they should have been wearing glasses but their bus inspectors never mentioned it, or they had trained on single deckers and the company switched them to double deckers with no extra training, or countless other scenarios where it’s not quite as simple as a dodgy driver and there’s lessons every company could learn but not necessarily much to be gained by picking on one scapegoat. That doesn’t mean if your “no blame” investigation uncovers something so bad that others couldn’t prosecute but month MAIB and AAIB have run into headaches with admissibility of evidence, and the desire to publish findings that may save lives v prejudice a trial.

To some extent the Glasgow bin lorry crash represents the sort of scenario you are referrring to. Ultimately there was a prosecution but for a much less serious offence, but by electing not to prosecute the fatal accident inquiry was able to highlight problems in reference checks and medical scrutiny of drivers. It would be difficult as a family member not to feel the driver got off far too lightly, but a simple criminal trial would likely never have revealed those systemic issues that could let it happen again. I’d like to think that as a family member I’d see that bigger picture and prefer my loved one’s loss had made a recurrence less likely.

In terms of todays accident in a criminal case it becomes too easy to blame the people who died because they aren’t here to defend themselves. A no blame investigation may be more likely to find all the factors that contributed - because it is very rare that accidents at sea are caused by one single cock up.

Your points are well made and I appreciate and understand them. It does seem, however, thar public and media attention and pressure greatly influences how the authorities act. Take the Costa Concordia for example. The Captain was arrested a couple of days after the accident and the criminal investigation took precedence over the maritime investigation. Every life is equal and there should be as much official attention paid to a few sailors lost with their own ship as passengers on a cruise ship.

 

[Irish Rover]

I’m running the London marathon for “against breast cancer” so it matters to me. I lost my wife to the horrid disease and I want to try and do something about it. So I care.

Sorry, pal. No offence was meant. I just don't see the relevance in the context of the current discussion. My wife's mother and sister both had breast cancer so my wife is at high risk and it's always a major concern for us.

 

[jamie N]

The AIS animation is quite chilling, and seems to indicate that neither vessel altered course or speed, prior to the collision.
One of the things that's missing though is the timeline, without which it's difficult for me to 'scale'.

 

[Irish Rover]

It will take months, even years to investigate if all the other collisions at sea are anything to go by. By due process, the accident will be investigated. The results will be passed from competent investigators to competent government officials in the jurisdiction of the incident. As one vessel was UK flagged, they MAIB, I'm sure will be involved. This will all take time.

It's pointless hopping up and down like a south American Indian on the deck of Spray doing finger pointy and jumping to conclusions.

In my opinion.....

See my earlier post referencing the Costa Concordia where the authorities acted within hours/ days.
Your American Indian analogy seems a bit, ahem - - well - - you know.

 

[finestgreen]

That doesn’t mean if your “no blame” investigation uncovers something so bad that others couldn’t prosecute but month MAIB and AAIB have run into headaches with admissibility of evidence, and the desire to publish findings that may save lives v prejudice a trial.

You're right and this is just terminology but it's worth saying that "no blame" isn't the aim - the people who think about these things call it a "just culture".

It starts from the point of view that accidents are usually the result of multiple causes across the overall system rather than one villain doing a bad thing. If you want to improve safety you need to understand those causes, and the legal approach of finding out who is culpable does not do a good job of that.

But it's not "no blame" - once you've looked at all the causes if you're left with people that really should have done better - wilful violation or gross negligence - *then* they need to be held accountable with suitable consequences.

 

[Mister E]

A friend of mine commented about the crewing levels on these ships.
How do they find time to get a proper sleep?

 

[Supertramp]

The AIS animation is quite chilling, and seems to indicate that neither vessel altered course or speed, prior to the collision.
One of the things that's missing though is the timeline, without which it's difficult for me to 'scale'.

Agree and its neither possible or sensible to judge the detail from this. Since one of the vessels would be stand on only one should have altered course. But if its a TSS on a "corner" I can see how confusion could arise in the dark at 3 am in poor weather. Any VHF records would add a lot.

We assume these guys are professionals and somehow different and better than us amateurs. In practice they probably have little more info available than we do and a much less manoeuvrable ship.

Chilling and tragic. The comparison is with a plane crash rather than road traffic.

 

[capnsensible]

See my earlier post referencing the Costa Concordia where the authorities acted within hours/ days.
Your American Indian analogy seems a bit, ahem - - well - - you know.

More polite than knee jerking over reaction is perhaps the ahem you are looking for. With all due respect, of course....

 

[Irish Rover]

More polite than knee jerking over reaction is perhaps the ahem you are looking for. With all due respect, of course....

No, that's grand. At least it's not racist.

 

[finestgreen]

The AIS animation is quite chilling, and seems to indicate that neither vessel altered course or speed, prior to the collision.
One of the things that's missing though is the timeline, without which it's difficult for me to 'scale'.

There's a timeline at the bottom of the animation, it's hard to be precise but roughly:

0251 Polsie turns port
0252 Verity turns starboard
0254 Verity turns port
0255 Polsie turns starboard
0257 Tracks overlap and Verity stops moving

 

[RupertW]

Serious negligence, wouldn't you say?

Why - if they had lights on they are doing far better than some ships I’ve glimpsed at night even in the English Channel.
It‘s one reason I still haven’t got round to installing AIS as it seems like being optional about whether you appear on radar, so a potentially false sense of awareness of what is around you. Not against it but inherently unreliable around places like the Caribbean and Adriatic where a lot of yachts (and many other craft) routinely switch it off so they can’t be tracked.