Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[dunedin]

By that definition you could just pay yourself to professionally install the batteries.

No. He said somebody “in business” doing that work.
Again very obvious stuff that an insurance company could check if a claim arose
- do they have a business bank account
- do they have multiple clients
- do they have a business website / Facebook page
etc

Having seen some shocking DIY bodges I think it is wise for insurers to insist on this. Yes some amateurs will be very skilled. And a handful of professional businesses may not be - but they will not stay in business long. But looking at probabilities and percentages (which is the core of underwriting) a professional installation will be less likely to be a bodge.
And some amateurs who think they are experts are probably deluding themselves,

 

[Sea Change]

Only if it's your normal profession. If you are a professional footballer i doubt the insurance company would accept an invoice from yourself for a Lithium installation.

People can do more than one thing.
Some marine professionals, like skippers, instructors, even surveyors, may only do this work part time.

 

[st599]

Chatting to some manufacturers of large LiFePO4 "gensets" at the last trade show I visited, they had similar issues and their products have to have systems to measure and warn and to mitigate all of the known failure modes of the battery system and then have containment/fume removal in case all else fails.

I can't see it being hard to create a similar recommended practice or standard for leisure boats, but it would require effort at a body like the IET or CENELEC with dialogue with insurers.

 

[Pye_End]

Chatting to some manufacturers of large LiFePO4 "gensets" at the last trade show I visited, they had similar issues and their products have to have systems to measure and warn and to mitigate all of the known failure modes of the battery system and then have containment/fume removal in case all else fails.

At Dusseldorf this year there were several stands promoting LiFePO4's and sodium batteries (not the same stands). I asked some of them for installation guides, and recommendations on where to go for safe installation practices, and they said that they just make and sell the batteries.

I also asked a very well known yacht manufacturer why they do not make yachts with LiFePO4 as standard (after having a similar conversation), and was told it was because there was still caution in their business over the technology.

 

[billskip]

End of the day it all amounts to the insurance company paying out,
Ok the bit of paper saying you are insured Is for the official.

 

[mjcp]

By that definition you could just pay yourself to professionally install the batteries.

IF you are in business on your own account in that trade, then yes.

If you are not, then no.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Chatting to some manufacturers of large LiFePO4 "gensets" at the last trade show I visited, they had similar issues and their products have to have systems to measure and warn and to mitigate all of the known failure modes of the battery system and then have containment/fume removal in case all else fails.

I can't see it being hard to create a similar recommended practice or standard for leisure boats, but it would require effort at a body like the IET or CENELEC with dialogue with insurers.

These have no power or control over marine electrical installations, if tghey did you would not be able to do ANY electrical work on your boat at all.

 

[PaulRainbow]

People can do more than one thing.
Some marine professionals, like skippers, instructors, even surveyors, may only do this work part time.

You are either a professional marine electrician or you are not. You cannot just knock an invoice up calling yourself Bodgit and Scarper Marine Electrical Services and expect that to be acceptable.

If it isn't your living you're not a professional, simple.

 

[Sea Change]

You are either a professional marine electrician or you are not. You cannot just knock an invoice up calling yourself Bodgit and Scarper Marine Electrical Services and expect that to be acceptable.

If it isn't your living you're not a professional, simple.

Maybe this is the case for marine electricians. It's not necessarily the case for every profession.

A friend of mine trained as a domestic electrician, then after a few years retrained as a lawyer.
He makes a living as a lawyer, but when he built his house, he did the wiring himself and sighed it off. All completely legit and above board.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Maybe this is the case for marine electricians. It's not necessarily the case for every profession.

A friend of mine trained as a domestic electrician, then after a few years retrained as a lawyer.
He makes a living as a lawyer, but when he built his house, he did the wiring himself and sighed it off. All completely legit and above board.

He was able to sign it off, not because it was his profession, but because he has the necessary qualification. Insurance companies are not saying LFP must be installed by a qualified installer, because the qualification does not exist.

 

[Sea Change]

He was able to sign it off, not because it was his profession, but because he has the necessary qualification. Insurance companies are not saying LFP must be installed by a qualified installer, because the qualification does not exist.

Yes this is a useful distinction. I think it comes down to whether the professional in question has insurance of their own.
This was certainly the case when I tried to get my boat insured whilst on my mooring, which was laid by the local fish farm. My insurers wanted to know that it had been laid and maintained by professionals. I suggested that people who deal with heavy mooring gear on a daily basis could be considered professional. As far as I know there's no accepted qualifications for moorings work. But what my insurers *really* wanted was to pass the buck to somebody who had insurance of their own. They did not consider my mooring professionally laid, and I was unable to get cover.

Pretty black and white when you drill down to it.

 

[ylop]

Pretty black and white when you drill down to it.

And if you make a claim and can’t convince the insurer - will you manage to convince the ombudsman or a court.

 

[st599]

These have no power or control over marine electrical installations, if tghey did you would not be able to do ANY electrical work on your boat at all.

CENELEC already incorporate ISO specs for ac and dc in to the RCD (and the same document BS ISO EN 13297:2021 is republished as a British Standard) and the IET publish guidance on electrical installations on small craft: The IET Shop - On-Board Guide: Electrical Safety for Small Craft (e-book)

What's needed is a recommended practice for small LiFePO4 installs.

 

[lustyd]

I’m curious, does professional insurance cover an installation not done in the line of work? As in, would you have to actually invoice yourself and pay for it to be valid? If that’s the measure of “professional installation” there could be a gotcha in there for self installs done by pros.

 

[PaulRainbow]

CENELEC already incorporate ISO specs for ac and dc in to the RCD (and the same document BS ISO EN 13297:2021 is republished as a British Standard) and the IET publish guidance on electrical installations on small craft: The IET Shop - On-Board Guide: Electrical Safety for Small Craft (e-book)

What's needed is a recommended practice for small LiFePO4 installs.

But neither of those affect used boats or owners working on their own boats, however good or bad their work might be. The IET would love it if marine electrical installations were subject to their standards. If that were the case there would be no DIY electrical work allowed on boats. Wouldn't bother me, my work is accepted by insurance companies, i've had LFP accepted and have carried out work as part of insurance claims, but it might not be so good for those who like to do things themselves, just look at the outrage being caused by insurance companies insisting on pro only LFP installations.

If you want recommended practice for LFP how about ISO/TS 23625 ?

 

[st599]

Why would an IET recommended practice stop DIY work? The wiring regs are an RP and allow DIY (although the Building Regs prevent work in bathrooms).

Without something from a recognised body that you can work to and document against, I can't see the insurance situation changing.

At least for fire extinguisher requirements there's now a new ISO lithium extinguisher category.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Why would an IET recommended practice stop DIY work? The wiring regs are an RP and allow DIY (although the Building Regs prevent work in bathrooms).

Without something from a recognised body that you can work to and document against, I can't see the insurance situation changing.

At least for fire extinguisher requirements there's now a new ISO lithium extinguisher category.

So an amateur can come and wire your new house up, with no qualifications ?

I think not.

 

[billskip]

So an amateur can come and wire your new house up, with no qualifications ?

I think not.

Well the "amateur " could wire it up but getting it connected to the supply, satisfying the regulations, satisfying the insurance, NHBC warranty,(if necessary) would be difficult, so that would mean it would have to be signed off by a "ticket holder"

 

[st599]

So an amateur can come and wire your new house up, with no qualifications ?

I think not.

No, but the homeowner can do remedial work or additions. I'd assume that the yacht builder would do the initial install.

 

[billskip]

but the homeowner can do remedial work or additions.

I belive certain restrictions apply....