Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[Trident]

Just as an aside, I received a large number of EVE cells yesterday from my supplier for a big install I am doing next week (nearly 2000 AH)

Previously, these have arrived after several days in transit on TNT having been through a "dangerous goods" centre in the W Mids to check the packaging and labelling etc . This batch arrived next day with no delays and no trips to the dangerous goods centre (I should note that many sellers simply do not tell the carrier what they have and use next day service with no checks but these were fully labelled and documented) and the courier basically said they now don't treat LFP the same as other chemistries and it doesn't need the checks any more.

Hopefully this marks the acceptance of LFP as a safe as houses kind of battery and if it can be transported as non hazardous (and there are major international rules and guidelines as to these things) then insurers may well start to agree how safe these things are (if properly installed of course)

 

[Tradewinds]

At some point during the application process you probably answer a question “have there been any modifications”. This is their gotcha - but it’s only relevant if there is a future claim in relation to the lithiums so if it’s a “good” install there is likely no claim.

Pantaenius’s gotcha is “material change”. Swopping from LA to LFP is regarded as a material change. None of this is evident (to my knowledge) on their website or in general documentation. Either way they choose not to highlight it.

 

[Sea Change]

Pantaenius’s gotcha is “material change”. Swopping from LA to LFP is regarded as a material change. None of this is evident (to my knowledge) on their website or in general documentation. Either way they choose not to highlight it.

Interesting. Would swapping from one brand of LFP to another be a non material change? You wouldn't tell your insurer when you changed your lead acid battery, would you?

 

[Malish]

Most surveyors don’t know their ass from their elbow when it comes to lithium batteries.

so they will put a caveat in their report, just as they would for rigging or an engine

 

[PaulRainbow]

Interesting. Would swapping from one brand of LFP to another be a non material change? You wouldn't tell your insurer when you changed your lead acid battery, would you?

Not likely to tell them you changed from SLA to AGM or Gel either, but those are all still LA, LFP is a different chemistry/technology.

 

[Sea Change]

Not likely to tell them you changed from SLA to AGM or Gel either, but those are all still LA, LFP is a different chemistry/technology.

Yes, I think the changes between different types of LA aren't enough to call it material. At most, changing a few settings on chargers.
But this is just me making assumptions.

 

[billskip]

But this is just me making assumptions

Praps this is not a good thing to publish, could end up shooting yourself in the foot .....loopholes are often found in the most unlikely event.
When we designed a new control for our equipment, putting it in the field for the operators who woud generally find a 'security ' bypass that all the highly qualified highly paid designers couldn't see.....
Threads and posts on forums sometimes rattle cages...

 

[ylop]

Interesting. Would swapping from one brand of LFP to another be a non material change? You wouldn't tell your insurer when you changed your lead acid battery, would you?

I wouldn't have thought so - that's just routine maintenance. I don't tell them when I've replaced the engine fan belt or probably even if I swapped for a whole new engine of identical model but they would expect to know if you put a new bigger engine in. I probably wouldn't tell them if I went from 80Ah LA starter + 120 Ah house battery and no 240V to 80+120/120/120 +inverter and shore power... but they might see it differently if it burned down in an electrical fire!

The link from the insurer further up the thread is interesting - that implies that adding Li batteries is a major change within the RCD and requires reassessment...

The irony is that probably the greatest fire risk from Li batteries is the one you have in your pocket all the time connected to some cheap charger you bought to keep on the boat!

 

[st599]

The link from the insurer further up the thread is interesting - that implies that adding Li batteries is a major change within the RCD and requires reassessment...

Looking at the RCR, it requires testing of overload protection circuits, so presumably the argument is that changing to LIFePO4 requires new circuitry and therefore a retest?

It also requires:
Ventilation shall be provided to prevent the accumulation of explosive gases which might be emitted from batteries. Batteries shall be firmly secured and protected from ingress of water.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The link from the insurer further up the thread is interesting - that implies that adding Li batteries is a major change within the RCD and requires reassessment...

Only because GJW are clueless as far as LFP batteries are concerned.

Besides, the RCD/RCR only applies to new boats and is not retrospective.

The irony is that probably the greatest fire risk from Li batteries is the one you have in your pocket all the time connected to some cheap charger you bought to keep on the boat!

Yes, i agree.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Looking at the RCR, it requires testing of overload protection circuits, so presumably the argument is that changing to LIFePO4 requires new circuitry and therefore a retest?

As above, the RCD/RCR only applies to new boats and is not retrospective.

It also requires:
Ventilation shall be provided to prevent the accumulation of explosive gases which might be emitted from batteries. Batteries shall be firmly secured and protected from ingress of water.

Written before LFP on boats was a thing, LFP are sealed and do not emit explosive gases.

 

[Sea Change]

Praps this is not a good thing to publish, could end up shooting yourself in the foot .....loopholes are often found in the most unlikely event.
When we designed a new control for our equipment, putting it in the field for the operators who woud generally find a 'security ' bypass that all the highly qualified highly paid designers couldn't see.....
Threads and posts on forums sometimes rattle cages...

Yes, we tend to think we're talking amongst ourselves on here, but if you Google something, the AI overview will often scrape information from forums including this one.
I wouldn't put it past an insurance company to be swayed by what we write on here.

So in that light, for the benefit of anybody googling this:
LiFePO4 is inherently very safe
LiFePO4 is not the same risk as other types of lithium battery
Boat owners are capable of installing batteries safely if they use the correct fuses and cables.
There are no specific qualifications or standards covering installation of LiFePO4 batteries on boats in the UK.

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

 

[dunedin]

As above, the RCD/RCR only applies to new boats and is not retrospective.
……

Technically I understand that RCD/RCR reassessment is required for second hand boat when major changes are made. Don’t have the rules to hand to get the precise wording, but a Google would probably find.
Changing from diesel to electric propulsion is specifically listed as such a major change. Interestingly fitting a larger diesel engine (can’t recall threshold, perhaps 20% more) also is specifically listed as requiring reassessment.
Lead to LFP house batteries is I think in the grey areas.
(All from memory so happy to be corrected if somebody has actual rules text.)

Of course I doubt anybody has ever complied with these rules.

 

[st599]

As above, the RCD/RCR only applies to new boats and is not retrospective.

Written before LFP on boats was a thing, LFP are sealed and do not emit explosive gases.

It also applies to boats being placed on the market for the first time, so any that are being imported. LFP do emit explosive gases under thermal runaway - and the requirement for a sealed but ventilated container is now also in the MCA requirements.

 

[ylop]

As above, the RCD/RCR only applies to new boats and is not retrospective.

They are for major changes.
Some people seem to feel that LA --> Li is a "major craft conversion" under s43(2)(a) of the regs.

Major craft conversion is defined as:
“major craft conversion” means a conversion of a watercraft which—
(a)changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft;
(b)involves a major engine modification; or
(c)alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential requirements;

I'm not convinced it is - except that if you did it badly, it wouldn't meet the vague electrical requirements in the directive...

 

[john_morris_uk]

We’re with Pantaenius and hold some qualifications in electrical engineering (admittedly from a long time ago.). I DIY’d our Lithium Install under guidance from a friend who is a qualified marine engineer. I’m now thinking that I need to get him to send me an email saying he’s happy with the install. Hopefully that will satisfy Pantaenius…?

 

[ylop]

- and the requirement for a sealed but ventilated container is now also in the MCA requirements.

That's not how I read:

5.2 Batteries used for a source of power for propulsion should be stored in battery boxes or battery rooms. Battery boxes and battery rooms should be adequately ventilated to prevent the build-up of explosive or toxic gases (see section 6 for ventilation).

6.1. Ventilation of battery boxes and battery rooms should be appropriate to risks, battery size and battery storage location:
6.1.1 batteries located in a battery box may be ventilated by either:
• passive ventilation, where battery off-gas would not produce an explosive atmosphere; or
• active ventilation.
6.1.2 batteries located in a battery room should be ventilated by active ventilation.

 

[Sea Change]

LFP do emit explosive gases under thermal runaway - and the requirement for a sealed but ventilated container is now also in the MCA requirements.

LFP do emit hydrogen if you can get them up to 300⁰C, which they will not do by themselves. And by that point your boat is probably on fire anyway.

 

[st599]

LFP do emit hydrogen if you can get them up to 300⁰C, which they will not do by themselves. And by that point your boat is probably on fire anyway.

or if the membrane between anode and cathode is damaged, which can happen via overcharging, under temperature charging, vibration etc.

That's not how I read:

5.2 Batteries used for a source of power for propulsion should be stored in battery boxes or battery rooms. Battery boxes and battery rooms should be adequately ventilated to prevent the build-up of explosive or toxic gases (see section 6 for ventilation).

6.1. Ventilation of battery boxes and battery rooms should be appropriate to risks, battery size and battery storage location:
6.1.1 batteries located in a battery box may be ventilated by either:
• passive ventilation, where battery off-gas would not produce an explosive atmosphere; or
• active ventilation.
6.1.2 batteries located in a battery room should be ventilated by active ventilation.

My reading was that that meant direct propulsion from a motor, but I was told by an inspector recently that it included batteries that are part of the propulsion system, so a starter battery, or a domestic battery that can emergency start.

 

[Sea Change]

or if the membrane between anode and cathode is damaged, which can happen via overcharging, under temperature charging, vibration etc.

Do you have examples of this happening in real world situations? Not being snarky, I just wasn't aware that this had happened.