Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[jakew009]

Not how I see it. The problem is insurers are not asking for lithium installations to be installed a suitable standard. If they did, then anybody could installed it to the said standard. You would self certify on this basis. You wouldn't need a marine electrician to sign off.
I can understand why insurers ask for professional installation. There are plenty of enthusiastic DIY electricians who don't know that they don't know.
I guy I know falls into this bracket. He did a schematic of his intended lithium install. OMG! A total disaster. So much wrong. I am not getting involved, but he really has no clue. He says he will get a marine electrician to sign it off. Any marine electrician would be mad to do that if he installs as his schematic.

I agree in principle.

But the question remains: how do you define a professional marine electrician?

 

[Moodysailor]

I agree in principle.

But the question remains: how do you define a professional marine electrician?

There are some qualifications that can be taken which mean someone is trained to meet a set of standards, but I am reading this as you mean a set of national or international standards, of which there are none for leisure vessel marine electricians.

Paul Rainbow said it well on another thread once, in the context of our industry it means someone who can demonstrate they are suitably qualified and/or experienced and work in a professional capacity with requisite insurance.

Think about it in the eyes of the insurers, it’s about being able to prove the person fitting it has some idea what they are doing, and there is some recourse for the insurers, should the worst happen. In the commercial maritime space we have some legally accepted terminology we use in contracts for this. Unfortunately I haven’t seen this wording used in leisure insurance yet.

 

[ylop]

The problem is defining what a marine electrician is

I imagine in the insurance company’s head all that matters is that person had public liability / professional indemnity insurance so that any disaster from poor installation can be claimed from them!

 

[Sea Change]

I imagine in the insurance company’s head all that matters is that person had public liability / professional indemnity insurance so that any disaster from poor installation can be claimed from them!

That's certainly how it works with moorings.

 

[Lewis_56]

As of 05/03/26 "PorthcawI Insurance Consultants Ltd" are NOT DIY Lithium Phosphate friendly. This includes underwriters: Haven KJ All Risk and Nautical. Also Porthcawl doesn't seem like a competent company based upon my email exchange and their website. I will be checking the others.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2026 [content removed] wrote:

Dear ..........

Insurers have provide details of your experience and/or qualifications in relation to electrics, particularly marine electrics.

Insurers quotation is subject to the following condition in relation to Lithium Batteries:

'It is a condition of this insurance that Lithium batteries connected to the engine and/or domestic system of the vessel, must be Lithium-Ion Phosphate (LiFePO4) with a dedicated Battery Management System. Installation must be by a professional marine electrician to ensure compatibility with the vessel's electrical system or to upgrade the electrical system for load and compatibility. In the event of a claim, we will ask for documentary evidence of your compliance with this condition. Your failure to comply may invalidate your insurance and could mean that part of, or an entire claim may not be paid.'

In light of the above, it may be necessary for you to appoint a qualified marine electrician to inspect and sign off the installation.

 

[lustyd]

As has been said many times here before though, if you self-install a lead acid system and it turns out to be the root cause of a fire your cover may well not be as tight as you imagined.
Personally I'm content that my DIY lithium install won't be the cause of an issue (far more likely the engine start battery!) so am accepting that as a risk.

There are many reasons I didn't get a pro to come and do it, ironically reducing risk through fully understanding the system was one of the top ones.

 

[Lewis_56]

Everyone knows that insurance companies will find any excuse not to pay. But we shouldn't support companies that are anti-consumer.

Especially, as they won't reduce the premium if you exclude "fire originating on board the vessel".

Obviously i have installed my system to the best standard possible and it is clearly better than the original lead acid. Its been fine for 4 years even in 45 degree Turkish summer. But that doesn't mean that i wouldn't like full insurance if they are charging me the same price.

 

[lustyd]

I agree, and I agree with Paul that we should find and reward insurers who have decent terms.

 

[Pye_End]

Especially, as they won't reduce the premium if you exclude "fire originating on board the vessel".

Can you imagine excluding fire from your policy, and then burning down your own boat and your 3 neighbours. Could be a big personal bill.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

[

... Obviously i have installed my system to the best standard possible and it is clearly better than the original lead acid. ...

Have you though, what have the insurance company got to go on except your word (a rhetorical question)? From an insurance company perspective, they only have "professional installation" as an objective to minimise risk to them.

 

[jakew009]

As of 05/03/26 "PorthcawI Insurance Consultants Ltd" are NOT DIY Lithium Phosphate friendly. This includes underwriters: Haven KJ All Risk and Nautical. Also Porthcawl doesn't seem like a competent company based upon my email exchange and their website. I will be checking the others.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2026 [content removed] wrote:

If you can be bothered, you should keep going back to them, asking them to define what a "professional marine electrician" is. You will probably find they eventually give up after tying themselves in knots. If a few of us do this, things might get sorted out.

This was my fun and games with GJW...
I couldn't be bothered to continue the argument asking them to define a suitable fire extinguisher for a lithium battery and switched to a different insurer.

Hi Jake

1. Policy attached applies to policy year 2025 to 2026.
2. (*this is in respect of portable toys/devices)* — this is going to be added as an addendum to the policy wording. In the meantime this email is confirmation.
3. Yes, we no longer stipulate that the batteries have to be installed professionally.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Debbie

Thanks for your email.

So to be clear:

1) The policy document that you attached to your last email will be the one that applies to my policy at renewal?

2) Clause 14 in said document is missing a disclaimer: "(*this is in respect of portable toys/devices)*". This means that permanently installed lithium batteries powering the vessel's house load can be charged unattended?

3) There is no longer a requirement about batteries being professionally installed?

Thanks

Jake

Good morning Jake

Sorry for the delay in my reply,

The lithium battery condition has now been reviewed and I can confirm that policy wording now states:

Any lithium batteries on board must be stored and used in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and must not be left unattended whilst charging (*this is in respect of portable toys/devices)*. In addition, there must be a fully operational lithium-specific hand-held fire extinguisher on board.

With regard to the fire extinguishers, we are unable to confirm suitability but provided they are compatible with your battery size and system, then this would be acceptable. If in doubt, please kindly contact the company or manufacturer of your lithium-ion battery to ensure it is suitable.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Jake

Further to our telephone call today,

I will endeavour to pass on the information to my manager and we will revert.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Debbie

OK, let's give it a go. When is convenient for you?

Thanks

Jake

Hi Jake

Is there a reason why we cannot discuss over the telephone? This is normal practice and then I will be happy to confirm our discussion by email.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Debbie

In that case I think it's probably better that I just request a response to my previous questions in writing and we go from there. I fear that nuance could be lost on a voice call.

Thanks

Jake

Hi Jake

We are unable to facilitate a video call.

I am happy to discuss by phone lithium battery conditions in respect of your policy if you would like to call.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Debbie

Yes, of course. I suggest a video call would be best.

Let me know some times that suit.

Thanks

Jake

Hi Jake

Are you available for us to discuss this over the phone and then I can send confirmation of the call by email?

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Dear Debbie

Thank you for your email. I have a couple more questions.

A2) You state that an "approved electrotechnical apprenticeship" (my emphasis) is acceptable. Please could you tell me who or what the apprenticeship would be approved by? If they are approved by GJW or the ultimate underwriters, please could you provide a list of apprenticeship schemes considered acceptable?

A2-2) Please can you confirm if the requirement to have undertaken a marine apprenticeship is absolute, or if there are other acceptable routes to prove competence? If so, what are they?

B2) I do not believe you answered B1 in my previous email. My question was: "Can you confirm that my understanding is correct and that there is no requirement to 'certify' the installation?"
Based on your response I believe that this is the case, but I would like absolute confirmation given the previous confusion.

C2) In question C1 I asked: "Please could you confirm exactly what standards, if any, the battery must meet?" Your response to this was: "Lithium battery certificates are official approvals that confirm a battery meets specific safety, performance and environmental standards."
This did not answer my question.
Please could I again ask for confirmation of exactly which standards, if any, the battery must meet?

D2) On the subject of fire extinguishers I have found the following two fire extinguishers claiming to be suitable for lithium batteries:

LITH-EX FIRE EXTINGUISHER - 500ml | Fire Safety Equipment
FireShield 500ml Lith-Safe Lithium Battery Fire Extinguisher

Please could you confirm if either of these would be considered acceptable, or if not, which extinguishers would be considered acceptable?

E2) Please could you provide me with a copy of the new policy so that I can review it in advance of my 10 October 2025 renewal?

E2-2) Please could you confirm GJW's stance on LiFePO4 battery installations that were fitted prior to the new policy coming into effect:

- By the current owner whilst insured under a policy issued by GJW that made no mention of LiFePO4 battery installations
- By the current owner whilst insured under a policy issued by a broker other than GJW
- By a previous owner of the boat

Kind regards

Jake

Hi Jake

I acknowledge receipt of your email and respond to your questions as follows:

A1) We would expect the person to be an approved electrotechnical apprenticeship in Marine Practices or marine Electrician apprenticeship standard.

B1) The installation of lithium-ion batteries and battery systems should be carried out by competent persons, and to suitable industry standards. If however you choose to fit the batteries yourself then you will need to get it checked by an qualified electrician (as above) that the installation has been carried out correctly as per manufacturers instructions and guidelines.

C1) Lithium battery certificates are official approvals that confirm a battery meets specific safety, performance and environmental standards.

D1) There are fire extinguishers which have been specially developed for quickly and safely controlling lithium battery fires. We cannot recommend what company you use to purchase this extinguisher but can find a variety of companies online.

E1) We have recently updated our policy wording with regard to lithium batteries. When you renew your policy on 10th October 2025 you will be sent a copy of the new policy wording and you must comply with the conditions (as mentioned above). The current policy does not have these conditions included so they do not apply to you under this year's policy.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hi Jake, thank you for your email.

I have referred your details to our Main Underwriter and will come back to you in due course.

Kind regards,
Rebecca

continues in next post due to character limit

 

[jakew009]

Dear Rebecca

Thank you for your email, I really appreciate you trying to clarify the situation.

As you may imagine, your response raises some more questions from my side:

A1) Does the professional tradesperson have to have any formal electrical engineering qualifications? If so, what are the minimum qualifications that would be considered acceptable?

B1) In Debbie's previous email, she stated "must be professionally installed or certified." In my previous email, I asked for an explanation of what "certification" would involve. Your response to question B) and lack of reference to "certification" in response to question A) infers that the "certification" instead refers to the standards of the battery itself rather than the installation.

Can you confirm that my understanding is correct and that there is no requirement to "certify" the installation?

C1) You state that the battery must have official approvals that it meets "specific safety, performance, and environmental standards".

Please could you confirm exactly what standards, if any, the battery must meet?

D1) Can you confirm exactly what standards the fire extinguisher must adhere to? I have spoken to ASAP Supplies and Marine Super Store but they had absolutely no idea about lithium fire extinguishers.

E1) I am now confused about the implementation of this policy. Are you saying this isn't actually policy yet but you intend to introduce it in the future? Will it be applied retrospectively to existing policies?

I look forward to your response.

Kind regards

Jake

Hi Jake, thank you for your email.

A) This would be by a professional tradesperson who holds PI Insurance, i.e. an electrical engineer.

B) Lithium battery certifications are official approvals that confirm a battery meets specific safety, performance, and environmental standards.

C) Any fire caused by the batteries. If you are unsure of an appropriate fire extinguisher, a chandlery will be able to provide.

D) We are currently working on adding wording to our policy but this is not available at the moment.

Kind regards,
Rebecca

Dear Debbie

Thank you for your response. Please could you clarify a couple of things for me:

A) You state that the lithium-ion batteries and management systems must be professionally installed. Please could you define exactly what you mean by "professionally installed"?

B) You state that a system may be "certified". I assume this relates to a DIY install. Please could you expand on what the requirements of this "certification" would be?

C) You state that an appropriate fire extinguisher must be carried on board suitable for dealing with any fire relating to it. Please could you expand on this statement? What exactly do you mean by "any fire relating to it"?

D) I have had a look through all of the policy documents that I was provided when I took this policy out and I can find no mention of anything to do with lithium batteries. Please could you confirm where I will find these terms listed in the policy documentation that I was provided with when I took the policy out?

Kind regards

Jake

Hi Jake

This is the condition in respect of lithium batteries:

The installations of lithium-ion batteries and management systems must be professionally installed or certified. The charging, discharge and storage of the batteries must have been installed as per the manufacturer's instructions and guidelines and an appropriate fire extinguisher must be carried on board suitable for dealing with any fire relating to it.

Kind regards

Debbie Ashton
Senior Assistant Underwriter

Hello

Please could you let me know your policy on LiFePO4 battery installations on boats?

I would like to quote your response on this forum thread:
Self install of LiFePO4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)

Kind regards

Jake

 

[Sea Change]

Thanks for your perseverance on this Jake!
Trying to drill down to what they mean by 'professional' is the same as when I was trying to get insurance on my mooring- they want to be able to pass the buck to somebody else who has insurance.

 

[jakew009]

Have you though, what have the insurance company got to go on except your word (a rhetorical question)? From an insurance company perspective, they only have "professional installation" as an objective to minimise risk to them.

It's a completely stupid and meaningless term if they can't define what it means though. Which they clearly can't as demonstrated above by GJW's underwriter.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

It's a completely stupid and meaningless term if they can't define what it means though. Which they can't.

Sure, and it has been discussed on here many times. However, you miss the point, the insurance companies are trying to minimise risk to them. Most electrical professionals, as everyone understands the term, except people on YBW, will do a job in compliance with rules and regulations and, or to a standard that is safe. Amateurs on the other hand, as frequently shown on here, will bodge a job that contains a higher risk of failure compared to the professional.

Please don't try and make a point about low quality, or non compliant, professional Instalations, we all know that can happen, as can excellent amateur Instalations be completed to a professional standard.

The term professional installation is well understood, especially when it matters in a contract dispute.

 

[jakew009]

Sure, and it has been discussed on here many times. However, you miss the point, the insurance companies are trying to minimise risk to them. Most electrical professionals, as everyone understands the term, except people on YBW, will do a job in compliance with rules and regulations and, or to a standard that is safe. Amateurs on the other hand, as frequently shown on here, will bodge a job that contains a higher risk of failure compared to the professional.

Please don't try and make a point about low quality, or non compliant, professional Instalations, we all know that can happen, as can excellent amateur Instalations be completed to a professional standard.

The term professional installation is well understood, especially when it matters in a contract dispute.

I don't think i do miss the point. The term is completely ambiguous and unenforceable.
If what you say is true, why did GJW change their policy wording for their 2026 policy? They have completely deleted the requirement for 'professional installation" in new policies written today.

If you did a terrible job of installing a lithium battery on your boat and it caught fire, the insurer would be covered under the general "maintained in seaworthy condition" clause they have anyway.

 

[thinwater]

Now that I've been living with LiFePO4 for a while, and following these threads even longer ...

• Is the risk with lithium actually any greater? Case history? We can discard thermal runaway as an issue. There are potential charging issues, but most of these relate to damaging electronics or the alternator, not fire. Fusing, but a large LA has more than enough power to start a fire; you can weld with them, as has been demonstrated many times. I once watched (I was just sitting around after work with the guys) a truck catch on fire because a wire chafed on a frame rail next to a fuel line. I've seen the aftermath of LA that shorted internally and overcharged, and I have my own batteries start boiling out water several times; I'm sure overheating was in their near future.
• I've seen the results of a few boat fires in the area lately. None was lithium. Old batteries. Bilge pumps. Heaters left running through the winter. The usual stuff. I doubt the actual cause was provable in most cases. Some sank and were not recovered.
• The "suitable fire extinguisher" requirement cracks me up. (a) You probably aren't there--it would not have been used in the cases I've seen. (b) They need to define.

This could be funny ... but it isn't.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I don't think i do miss the point. The term is completely ambiguous and unenforceable.
If what you say is true, why did GJW change their policy wording for their 2026 policy? They have deleted the requirement for 'professional installation" in new policies written today.

You do miss the point as you are hung up on definitions rather than risk reduction, which is the whole point of an insurance company's business plan to make profit. I have no idea why GJW changed their policy wording, I assume they took advise and it was better for them to not include the term. My experience from contract reviews and negotiations is that controlling statements are easily addressed and clarified when les is written, especially when you have multiple clauses controlling similar risks. For example, the contract might say that LiFePO4 batteries have to be installed by a professional. The contract might also have a clause that states any upgrades have to be in compliance with the latest standard of something or another. Professional is a redundant term because the contract already states compliance with the latest standard. How it is proved, if a claim is made, might be important, or it might not be. In general terms the insurance contract is a method for two parties to do business that is mutually successful. Excluding a lot of people because of restrictive clauses might be counter productive to GJW because most people don't claim and having premiums is more important to them.

 

[jakew009]

How it is proved, if a claim is made, might be important, or it might not be.

Happy to agree to disagree. Your above statement is actually where I started with GJW.

As a responsible boat owner, I thought it would be prudent to check with my insurance company that the electrician I was going to use was a suitable professional in their eyes. They couldn't help me and instead deleted the clause...

If this were domestic mains wiring, it would be easy. Professional = registered with one of the regulatory bodies (NICEIC, NAPIT etc). No such thing exists for boat wiring.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Happy to agree to disagree. Your above statement is actually where I started with GJW.

As a responsible boat owner, I thought it would be prudent to check with my insurance company that the electrician I was going to use was a suitable professional in their eyes. They couldn't help me and instead deleted the clause...

If this were domestic mains wiring, it would be easy. Professional = registered with one of the regulatory bodies (NICEIC, NAPIT etc). No such thing exists for boat wiring.

There is a difference between "professional" and "qualified". In your domestic example above the person is likely to be both. It is possible to be a professional without being qualified. What qualifications does a professional sports person have, for instance ? What qualifications can a professional "marine electrician have ?