Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[RunAgroundHard]

This is the really scary thing. The guy that thinks he is competent but is unaware of standards and complains when he has to pay for them, so probably won't bother and carries on oblivious to the risks.

Drop in is scary. Associates on a class forum are buying drop in LiFePO4 batteries and simply swapping out the LA. No concerns for cable sizing, fuses, charging. Then when certain things are discussed, others start bleating on about ignoring forums and their fear mongers.

 

[jakew009]

Drop in is scary. Associates on a class forum are buying drop in LiFePO4 batteries and simply swapping out the LA. No concerns for cable sizing, fuses, charging. Then when certain things are discussed, others start bleating on about ignoring forums and their fear mongers.

I think it’s important to substantiate what “drop in” means.

There is nothing wrong with the typical 280Ah “drop in” battery that has 4 cells in it and a JBD or similar BMS in a plastic case. It’s exactly the same battery as someone could build themselves from raw cells and a BMS, except for it’s probably better built with laser welded busbars and has gone through UN38.3 testing.

What is arguably “dangerous” is taking either of these type of batteries and simply
“dropping them in” to an existing boats electrical system without checking and updating where necessary the fusing and charging system.

 

[ylop]

The interesting thing about “unattended” charging with a lfp battery, is wtf are you supposed to do if the main battery does catch on fire whilst you are onboard?

...

To be honest I think if I found lithium batteries on fire whilst on the boat I’d be exiting pdq, the boat can burn.

I often think the same when fire brigades recommend not leaving things charging (or washing machines running) when you are out the house. If my house is going to have a fire - I'd rather be outside at the time! The logic may make sense for a phone charging where it starts to smoke and can be isolated and removed before becoming an out of control fire - that I suspect is actually what most of the insurers are trying to safeguard against (phones, laptops, ebikes, powertools, etc not the house bank). They may however, be keen that the fire is discovered before it spreads to neighbouring vessels/infrastructure. If that really becomes an issue I imagine marinas will develop additional rules!

Point two is different: do they want the business? If insurers had a policy of not wanting to insure sailing boats, or boats on swing moorings, or anything under 35 feet, we might think that weird, or shortsighted, or based on a misunderstanding of the technology or risks. But actually it's up to them what they choose to insure or not.

We all accept various forms of exclusions (war, terrorism, volcanic erruption etc) so it doesn't seem too odd to me that there is a risk (thermal runaway from a LiFePO4 battery) which we believe is so unlikely to happen that it is an acceptable exclusion.

 

[Moodysailor]

If a timely reminder was needed that insurance companies will always cover their risk as the consequence is usually very serious, there was a fire in Chichester marina this week. I am in no way suggesting the cause was anything electrical, my point is that the fire spread to another boat, both were unable to be saved. There will be significant damage to the pontoon and disruption for the marina.

Playing devils advocate, we do need good quality standards in the marine industry. If at sea, it's not like you can pull over and walk home. If in a marina, the consequnce of an issue on your neighbour could be that you lose your boat.

Hopefully the survyors and other industry experts can provide enough advice to insurers to help them adjust their risk appetite over time. Until then, it can be worth remembering that having some standards or rules enforced - even if it seems draconian to some - can help in the long run by lifting quality.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I think it’s important to substantiate what “drop in” means.

There is nothing wrong with the typical 280Ah “drop in” battery that has 4 cells in it and a JBD or similar BMS in a plastic case. It’s exactly the same battery as someone could build themselves from raw cells and a BMS, except for it’s probably better built with laser welded busbars and has gone through UN38.3 testing.

What is arguably “dangerous” is taking either of these type of batteries and simply
“dropping them in” to an existing boats electrical system without checking and updating where necessary the fusing and charging system.

From post #81 "No concerns for cable sizing, fuses, charging", i don't think that's "arguably dangerous". It clearly is dangerous.

 

[geem]

Which bit in my post exactly is “wrong”?

I will let you work that out when you have read the standard. Designing a system using YBW is not the best way forward

 

[st599]

From post #81 "No concerns for cable sizing, fuses, charging", i don't think that's "arguably dangerous". It clearly is dangerous.

I think the other aspect that could be dangerous is location on the boat. On one yacht I sail on regularly, the battery is in a compartment next to the engine separated by wood and a foil lined foam. As the thermal runaway temperature of LiFePO4 is about 250-250 degrees and an engine fire can hit 700 - I think there'd need to be a relocation of the battery compartment so in the event of an engine fire, the battery didn't start off-gassing hydrogen.

Similarly, CATL (who make batteries for Tesla, VW, Toyota and BMW amongst others) are pushing boundaries Sodium-ion batteries - they promise slightly worse performance than LiFePO4, but up to 90% cheaper. So the issue of new battery technologies is not going away, and as they become cheaper will proliferate.

 

[geem]

I think it’s important to substantiate what “drop in” means.

There is nothing wrong with the typical 280Ah “drop in” battery that has 4 cells in it and a JBD or similar BMS in a plastic case. It’s exactly the same battery as someone could build themselves from raw cells and a BMS, except for it’s probably better built with laser welded busbars and has gone through UN38.3 testing.

What is arguably “dangerous” is taking either of these type of batteries and simply
“dropping them in” to an existing boats electrical system without checking and updating where necessary the fusing and charging system.

There are many cheap drop in batteries built to appalling standards. I have seen inside a Sterling LifePo4, and I was shocked. Probably the worst LifePo4 internals I have seen. To be fair, drop in batteries from the more well know brands get better and better. If you haven't seen a video of the internals of your battery from somebody like Will Prowse, I wouldn't buy it. If it's a cheap battery from an unheard of manufacturer, stay well clear. Some are appalling and dangerous. It's still possible to build your own LifePo4 battery with good cells and a JK BMS to a higher standard than a drop in battery for less money.
I believe that building the battery isn't that hard. I have done several. How you integrate the battery safely into an existing electrical system, not designed for Lifepo4 can be more challenging, as you say. Without a common standard to work to, it should not be undertaken by an enthusiastic amateur.
BS standards, ISO standards and ABYC standards are there for a reason. Isolators per battery, NH or class T fuses located as close to the battery as possible, smart shunt, busbars, hydraulically crimped cable lugs, grommets through bulkheads on battery cables, all form part of a safe system. Not everybody installs to a high standard demanded by insurers.
You can see why they say professional install only. If they said, install to ABYC standards, the competent amateur could achieve the same level of professionalism, but first he would need to buy the standard, read it and understand it

 

[jakew009]

From post #81 "No concerns for cable sizing, fuses, charging", i don't think that's "arguably dangerous". It clearly is dangerous.

I agree entirely and would never be happy with it myself, but I didn't want to be alarmist.

It's evident (and we have discussed it before) that there are lots of boats driving around with lithium batteries that have simply been dropped in with no other upgrades. I imagine in caravans and motorhomes it's even more common.

On the basis that these boats / vehicles don't seem to be catching fire in great numbers, the risk must be relatively low.

As you are proving with your hybrid bank, connecting a lfp in parallel with a lead acid actually seems to work fine...

 

[Moodysailor]

There are many cheap drop in batteries built to appalling standards. I have seen inside a Sterling LifePo4, and I was shocked. Probably the worst LifePo4 internals I have seen. To be fair, drop in batteries from the more well know brands get better and better. If you haven't seen a video of the internals of your battery from somebody like Will Prowse, I wouldn't buy it. If it's a cheap battery from an unheard of manufacturer, stay well clear. Some are appalling and dangerous. It's still possible to build your own LifePo4 battery with good cells and a JK BMS to a higher standard than a drop in battery for less money.
I believe that building the battery isn't that hard. I have done several. How you integrate the battery safely into an existing electrical system, not designed for Lifepo4 can be more challenging, as you say. Without a common standard to work to, it should not be undertaken by an enthusiastic amateur.
BS standards, ISO standards and ABYC standards are there for a reason. Isolators per battery, NH or class T fuses located as close to the battery as possible, smart shunt, busbars, hydraulically crimped cable lugs, grommets through bulkheads on battery cables, all form part of a safe system. Not everybody installs to a high standard demanded by insurers.
You can see why they say professional install only. If they said, install to ABYC standards, the competent amateur could achieve the same level of professionalism, but first he would need to buy the standard, read it and understand it

Good post.
Another aspect I take is that the standards should the minimum, not something to be aspired to. In my boat I have a battery fuse, the cable is in conduit and then in trunking for support. Professionbal tools used for the connections and crimps, etc.
Why - for many reasons - quality, safety, servicability and longevity. The standards do more than just protect us, they can also provide a better experiance when the boat works well for many years and there is 'one less thing' to work on.

 

[geem]

I often think the same when fire brigades recommend not leaving things charging (or washing machines running) when you are out the house. If my house is going to have a fire - I'd rather be outside at the time! The logic may make sense for a phone charging where it starts to smoke and can be isolated and removed before becoming an out of control fire - that I suspect is actually what most of the insurers are trying to safeguard against (phones, laptops, ebikes, powertools, etc not the house bank). They may however, be keen that the fire is discovered before it spreads to neighbouring vessels/infrastructure. If that really becomes an issue I imagine marinas will develop additional rules!

We all accept various forms of exclusions (war, terrorism, volcanic erruption etc) so it doesn't seem too odd to me that there is a risk (thermal runaway from a LiFePO4 battery) which we believe is so unlikely to happen that it is an acceptable exclusion.

I wonder if we were starting from scratch with boats and insurance whether the risk of fire would now preclude the use of gas cookers. You can imagine asking the insurer if it was OK to light a fire in the galley several time a day, would they insure you? The answer from the insurer would be ' are you crazy! Do you know how dangerous that is! You could set the boat alight. No you must use an electric cooker. Far safer

 

[Graham376]

I wonder if we were starting from scratch with boats and insurance whether the risk of fire would now preclude the use of gas cookers. You can imagine asking the insurer if it was OK to light a fire in the galley several time a day, would they insure you? The answer from the insurer would be ' are you crazy! Do you know how dangerous that is! You could set the boat alight. No you must use an electric cooker. Far safer

Insurers or brokers may read threads so FFS don't give them any more ideas

 

[geem]

Insurers or brokers may read threads so FFS don't give them any more ideas

I could add in motorbikes and horse on public roads. Two statistically dangerous pursuits. Since there are no stats that say lifepo4 domestic battery banks are the direct cause of boat fires, it's a crazy situation

 

[Graham376]

I could add in motorbikes and horse on public roads. Two statistically dangerous pursuits. Since there are no stats that say lifepo4 domestic battery banks are the direct cause of boat fires, it's a crazy situation

I agree it's a crazy situation, in some ways like exemptions in some policies for gradual corrosion. I'm neither fore or against LifePO4 but after a battery bursting (smoke but no fire) in a mobile router, never leave anything similar charging overnight or when ashore.

 

[Refueler]

Insurers or brokers may read threads so FFS don't give them any more ideas

Try and put yourself in Insurers position ... and you start to see discussions like this with various comments whether fact or not ... what will you do ?

This is why I really do not like threads like this coming online.

 

[Refueler]

Drop-in batterys.

Its all well and good people here saying they should not be 'just dropped in' to replace LA ... but imagine a guy who has a boat. He has a few LA on it and need replacement.
He trundles of to shop - sees the blurb about how great are LiFePo4 ... the greater amount of charge can be used .... charge at high rates etc etc. He asks dealer about them...

Yes Sir - of course we do a Drop in version ... or you can sort out a LiFePo4 system from scratch .. we have all the gear ...

Arrrrr Drop In - you say ... so lift out the old and 'drop these' in to increase my capacity use etc ?

Yes Sir - Drop In.

In another thread - we already have evidence of a dealer - he ONLY deals in Batterys and Chargers !! Saying 'drop-in' for the LiFePo4 I bought from him. As he says - It has BMS for this ...
Is it any wonder then that some may just Drop In and not check rest of system ?

 

[Refueler]

I agree it's a crazy situation, in some ways like exemptions in some policies for gradual corrosion. I'm neither fore or against LifePO4 but after a battery bursting (smoke but no fire) in a mobile router, never leave anything similar charging overnight or when ashore.

A Lithium Ion - most likely in your router ... like any other battery will split if abused - whether its intentional or a malfunctioning charger etc .... I've had LA split as well as LiPo ... LiFe ... its a factor for ALL rechargeable batts

 

[Seven Spades]

Lithium will be the norm, I can't see that any insurer requiring boats not to be left with shore power plugged in is going to have many customers.

At the moment common sense has prevailed. Insurance is about risk, it is a numbers game, you can get insurance to Sail in Finland (in-spite of the rocks), You can sail in Orca territory, you have gas on board and some will have LiFePo4. The reality is that boats are not all catching fire, I continue to regard undersized cables as the biggest hazard particularly by owners doing their own conversions. So requiring the installation to be signed off by a marine electrician seems like a sensible idea. I don't think that LiFePo4 is a fire hazard pre se, the risk are so low that there really is no reason for them not to be insurable.

There are many videos showing how safe LeFePo4 is with cells being, crushed, drilled, short-circuited etc etc and the woirse reaction was some steam being given off. No fire or explosions.

 

[jakew009]

So requiring the installation to be signed off by a marine electrician seems like a sensible idea.

The problem is defining what a marine electrician is

 

[geem]

The problem is defining what a marine electrician is

Not how I see it. The problem is insurers are not asking for lithium installations to be installed a suitable standard. If they did, then anybody could installed it to the said standard. You would self certify on this basis. You wouldn't need a marine electrician to sign off.
I can understand why insurers ask for professional installation. There are plenty of enthusiastic DIY electricians who don't know that they don't know.
I guy I know falls into this bracket. He did a schematic of his intended lithium install. OMG! A total disaster. So much wrong. I am not getting involved, but he really has no clue. He says he will get a marine electrician to sign it off. Any marine electrician would be mad to do that if he installs as his schematic.