Lithium batteries on cars/boats

[RJJ]

Hi all, in respect of various impressive knowledge on here, I would love thoughts on the following. (also relevant to the lithium consideration on boats).

We need an additional small car. Planned usage will be perfect "electric territory" i.e, daily 20-mile return trip with easy overnight charging.

I'd welcome any thoughts and experience on (1) actual battery life; in which I can tolerate up to 25pc degradation over lifetime but 50pc would become a severe inconvenience (2) cost of battery replacement. The economics are highly favourable if I can assume the battery will usefully last 100,000 miles (as the "guarantees" indicate, but the "guarantees" only pertain to total failure not to performance). If I buy (say) a Renault Zoe with 20k miles for £17k, and the battery only does another 20k miles, it doesn't stack up compared to the known quantity of a small diesel.

We'll keep the passat for longer journeys and load-carrying. I'm not interested in the politics, just want A to B at best lifetime cost. Thanks in advance!

 

[geem]

Hi all, in respect of various impressive knowledge on here, I would love thoughts on the following. (also relevant to the lithium consideration on boats).

We need an additional small car. Planned usage will be perfect "electric territory" i.e, daily 20-mile return trip with easy overnight charging.

I'd welcome any thoughts and experience on (1) actual battery life; in which I can tolerate up to 25pc degradation over lifetime but 50pc would become a severe inconvenience (2) cost of battery replacement. The economics are highly favourable if I can assume the battery will usefully last 100,000 miles (as the "guarantees" indicate, but the "guarantees" only pertain to total failure not to performance). If I buy (say) a Renault Zoe with 20k miles for £17k, and the battery only does another 20k miles, it doesn't stack up compared to the known quantity of a small diesel.

We'll keep the passat for longer journeys and load-carrying. I'm not interested in the politics, just want A to B at best lifetime cost. Thanks in advance!

Hold off for now. Lecky cars going to get a whole lot cheaper and battery technology is changing fast. A current Lecky powered car will have an obsolete battery within 5 years.

 

[dukeofted]

I have owned an VW ID for the last two years and it has been absolutely brilliant, I'm never going back to petrol. 25000 miles and no noticeable battery degradation at all. Judging by some of the higher mileage electric cars I have no worry any time soon. I would steer clear of the Nissan Leaf as they don't have a proper thermal management system on the battery so they degrade a lot faster than other cars. My friend has a Renault Zoe and loves it, it is surprisingly big inside for a small car.

95% of my mileage is from home charging but I haven't had any issues with public charging so far, just takes a bit of planning. Charging overnight on your driveway is so convenient and cheap. And walking out to a car that has warmed and defrosted itself is the height of luxury on a winters day. If the economics and use pattern work it is a no brainer. If you care about the environment it is also a winner.

 

[Bouba]

Hold off for now. Lecky cars going to get a whole lot cheaper and battery technology is changing fast. A current Lecky powered car will have an obsolete battery within 5 years.

Why...they are using virtually the same batteries as they did five years ago...and they aren’t obsolete yet. My battery has a projected life of 300-500 thousand miles....newer car batteries might have upto a million miles life....and by life we are talking 30% degradation...so 300k and sill 70% capacity left...at my current rate of usage, I don’t have 300 k miles left in me...and the tinware that my car is made of might also not make it....a new car bought today will probably have an eight year battery warranty.
If you always wait till the next technological breakthrough before purchasing....you will never own anything

 

[Kelpie]

This Tesla Model S P85 Just Surpassed 1,500,000 Kilometers

Interesting report from an extremely high mileage Tesla. Obviously individual designs will have their own strengths and weaknesses but it's interesting to see that the battery and motor can do hundreds of thousands of miles.
Brakes apparently last much longer too, because they don't do much work- the regenerative braking does the work instead, harvesting energy rather than wasting it as heat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Sitting in my leccy car right now, and loving it, 8 year battery warranty included. There aren’t too many reasons not to buy one now apart from price and the fear of the unknown. Put your big boy pants on and find a used one. A leaf, perhaps, or the little BMW. Ideal for that journey.

 

[Bouba]

The easiest prediction to make is that the purchase price of electric cars will go down...and yet after I bought mine the prices went up...a lot. Of course that was the post covid surge...but even now supply lines are not settled...and now we might be standing on the cusp of another banking crisis....so while EVs will definitely drop in price....that may not coincide with the time you are in the market for one.
My point is....do what Chiara says and just go buy an EV

 

[Hermit]

(as the "guarantees" indicate, but the "guarantees" only pertain to total failure not to performance).

But total failure is generally reaching about 66% of original capacity, not complete failure. In the case of the Nissan Leaf, if you are below 8 out of 12 bars of battery SOH within the warranty period/mileage that qualifies for replacement. Need to read the small print on the manufacturers warranties as all will be slightly different of course.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

But total failure is generally reaching about 66% of original capacity, not complete failure. In the case of the Nissan Leaf, if you are below 8 out of 12 bars of battery SOH within the warranty period/mileage that qualifies for replacement. Need to read the small print on the manufacturers warranties as all will be slightly different of course.

70% at 8 years for us.

 

[ylop]

Hold off for now. Lecky cars going to get a whole lot cheaper and battery technology is changing fast. A current Lecky powered car will have an obsolete battery within 5 years.

that doesn't really help the OP who is planning to buy a car in the near future! especially if he's looking a 2nd hand vehicles as even if there's a revolutionary new model launched tomorrow (probably with a 6 month lead time) it will be 5 yrs before he can probably afford it!

The big uncertainty now, that didn't exist 2 years ago when we got ours is the cost of electricity. Obviously oil price fluctuates too - but not be a factor of 3 in the price you pay at the pump in 2 years.

 

[Bouba]

that doesn't really help the OP who is planning to buy a car in the near future! especially if he's looking a 2nd hand vehicles as even if there's a revolutionary new model launched tomorrow (probably with a 6 month lead time) it will be 5 yrs before he can probably afford it!

The big uncertainty now, that didn't exist 2 years ago when we got ours is the cost of electricity. Obviously oil price fluctuates too - but not be a factor of 3 in the price you pay at the pump in 2 years.

Yeah...you guys got hit hard with the electric price....still, you shouldn’t have sold all your electricity to us....thanks by the way....my electric car travels are very economical....

 

[geem]

that doesn't really help the OP who is planning to buy a car in the near future! especially if he's looking a 2nd hand vehicles as even if there's a revolutionary new model launched tomorrow (probably with a 6 month lead time) it will be 5 yrs before he can probably afford it!

The big uncertainty now, that didn't exist 2 years ago when we got ours is the cost of electricity. Obviously oil price fluctuates too - but not be a factor of 3 in the price you pay at the pump in 2 years.

As new cheaper cars come available the price of secondhand will drop a lot. The cheapest cars to run currently are LPG not electric. Not suggesting he buys new. Just holds fire until the Chinese cars hit the forecourts at half the price of current big car manufacturers. They will all need to drop their prices so second hand will also drop substantially

 

[Bouba]

As new cheaper cars come available the price of secondhand will drop a lot. The cheapest cars to run currently are LPG not electric. Not suggesting he buys new. Just holds fire until the Chinese cars hit the forecourts at half the price of current big car manufacturers. They will all need to drop their prices so second hand will also drop substantially

The big EV makers are announcing new, cheaper cars...but the lead times are long...two years probably. Don’t forget, that cheaper can mean shorter range...for me that isn’t a problem....but many on the EV thread can’t get over that hurdle

 

[geem]

Why...they are using virtually the same batteries as they did five years ago...and they aren’t obsolete yet. My battery has a projected life of 300-500 thousand miles....newer car batteries might have upto a million miles life....and by life we are talking 30% degradation...so 300k and sill 70% capacity left...at my current rate of usage, I don’t have 300 k miles left in me...and the tinware that my car is made of might also not make it....a new car bought today will probably have an eight year battery warranty.
If you always wait till the next technological breakthrough before purchasing....you will never own anything

They are moving to liquid cooled. It allows faster charge times on higher output chargers. It also means longer life. My pal has a hybrid car in Portugal. High ambient temperatures caused premature battery failure. His 5 year old car has lost a considerable amount of battery capacity. The mileage isn't high but the battery is degraded.

 

[Bouba]

They are moving to liquid cooled. It allows faster charge times on higher output chargers. It also means longer life. My pal has a hybrid car in Portugal. High ambient temperatures caused premature battery failure. His 5 year old car has lost a considerable amount of battery capacity. The mileage isn't high but the battery is degraded.

Tesla’s big breakthrough is the battery management....cooling and sophisticated software

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yeah...you guys got hit hard with the electric price....still, you shouldn’t have sold all your electricity to us....thanks by the way....my electric car travels are very economical....

And thanks to you French taxpayers, still subbing my electricity.

 

[Keith-i]

8 yr warantee on the batteries in my new hybrid Audi and a clever system that only uses the middle 70% or so of capacity (to prolong life) which it then extends as the battery ages so you ‘seem’ to get the same range. I get about 35 mile range which I charge at home on cheap rate night time juice for about 90p per charge.

 

[geem]

The big EV makers are announcing new, cheaper cars...but the lead times are long...two years probably. Don’t forget, that cheaper can mean shorter range...for me that isn’t a problem....but many on the EV thread can’t get over that hurdle

But that is the problem. For the public to accept them on mass the range needs to improve and the charging needs to be fast. For this to happen technology needs to improve. Its happening now but not yet on the forecourt. BMW and others going liquid cooled. Tesla cooling system is not great. A stop gap measure that will be improved soon

 

[Bouba]

But that is the problem. For the public to accept them on mass the range needs to improve and the charging needs to be fast. For this to happen technology needs to improve. Its happening now but not yet on the forecourt. BMW and others going liquid cooled. Tesla cooling system is not great. A stop gap measure that will be improved soon

In truth, it’s not the range but the charging infrastructure that counts....you don’t need 500 miles if you are never more that 25 miles from a charger. Extra range is more weight and more money....while there are always exciting new battery technologies being discovered in labs around the world...upscaling them to reliable, long lasting, buildable in vast numbers is much much harder...so right now we at a little plateau with only incremental changes in existing technology.
But, right now you can buy a really great electric car that will make you never ever go back to ice again

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Geem is clearly not too afraid to face an Atlantic storm, but is too nervous to drive 25 miles in an EV when there’s 50 left in the battery. Whereas I’m the opposite.