Any experts on Victron and lithium batteries?

john_morris_uk

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Some people may remember I posted a few days ago about our battery issues. We’re seriously looking at changing to lithium batteries but having real problems in deciding exactly which way to go. We’ve got a Victron solar controller and solar panels and I’ve been impressed with the quality of Victron kit. The obvious and easy answer is just the obvious answer is just to buy all Victron kit. However, Victron batteries are the thick end of $2000 each and they don’t even come with an inbuilt BMS. You have to buy a Victron BMS separately plus various other components.

I’m planning on buying one or two 300 aH Lithium FePo4 batteries with built in BMS. I then need a DC-DC charger plus an IP34 mains charger for when we’re connected to shore power or running the generator. All good do far.

It’s the monitoring I’m confused about. A Cerbo GX plus a touch screen display looks good but one company is then trying to add Lynx shunts and distribution and power in modules plus a battery protect module.

I thought most quality lithium batteries had built in battery protection? Also the Lynx stuff is completely OTT for our purposes and very big. We only have 30 amps max from our panels and a max of 50 amps from either the mains charger or the DC - DC charger.

However without the Lynx bits how do I still monitor things?
 

Neeves

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Interesting thread - but no replies.

I thought I'd refresh it to keep it active.

I've had a drop in, roundly condemned here, it has not caught fire, yet, it works as it says on the box. I monitor what it is doing daily. Its a simple portable power station and I run a mains cable from the inverter into the, domestic, its a house, kitchen and when we bake bread, use the airfryer, use the induction hob etc we plug into the Lithium battery (+ inverter :) ). Our electriciy bills have been markedly reduced.

We have been so impressed I will eventually build a new 'power station' but will then build my own batteries, currently 200amp, and have a larger inverter, currently 1500W and more solar currently 300 W.

My idea was to build a power station (gave me a different project) that I could easily move to another boat (having sold our cat) or use it for off grid camping (still to do that). I never, initially, envisaged using it in the home. But once it was all up and running I had to find a use for the electricity - hence the cable to the kitchen

But the battery, inverter and solars are too small.

I would say you need to double your ideas on batteries to 600amps, you need a big inverter and because of the vaguearies of weather 1,000w of solar. You only need 2 overcast days and you are running out of amp storage (or you need a fall back).

But I've been roundly condemned for my ideas - hopefully someone will answer your thread.


I'd suggest you get recommendations on battery and solar size from people who have used Lithium 24/7 as if you build too small its more expensive to extend, you need a different shunt, you need (or can use a more useful and) a bigger inverter. You might also need a bigger DC-DC charger or bigger charger from shore power (or both) The same people will advise on what you need for monitoring. Those who have built their own batteries will suggest you do the same - removing the costs of batteries you mention.

Jonathan
 
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PaulRainbow

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Some people may remember I posted a few days ago about our battery issues. We’re seriously looking at changing to lithium batteries but having real problems in deciding exactly which way to go. We’ve got a Victron solar controller and solar panels and I’ve been impressed with the quality of Victron kit. The obvious and easy answer is just the obvious answer is just to buy all Victron kit. However, Victron batteries are the thick end of $2000 each and they don’t even come with an inbuilt BMS. You have to buy a Victron BMS separately plus various other components.
I would not pay Victron prices for batteries. Either build your own using EVE cells from Fogstar, or look at the Fogstar batteries.
I’m planning on buying one or two 300 aH Lithium FePo4 batteries with built in BMS. I then need a DC-DC charger plus an IP34 mains charger for when we’re connected to shore power or running the generator. All good do far.
OK
It’s the monitoring I’m confused about. A Cerbo GX plus a touch screen display looks good but one company is then trying to add Lynx shunts and distribution and power in modules plus a battery protect module.
The Lynx stuff is overpriced and you don't really need it.
I thought most quality lithium batteries had built in battery protection?
The BMS should shut down charging to prevent from overcharge, shut down loads to prevent over discharge, shut down charging if it's too hot or cold etc
Also the Lynx stuff is completely OTT for our purposes and very big. We only have 30 amps max from our panels and a max of 50 amps from either the mains charger or the DC - DC charger.

However without the Lynx bits how do I still monitor things?
Stick with Victron for the DC-DC charger and mains charger. Fit a Victron Smartshunt, with or without the display. I don't have the display, i use Bluetooth to monitor, but i do have fixed Android tablets for monitoring etc. I also have a Cerbo GX with the 7" touchscreen display, it is a good piece of kit, you can add tank levels t it and several other features.

If you fit more than one battery, connect each battery to a fuse, then an isolator switch, then to a busbar and onwards to the electrical systems. I would agree with Jonathan, fit 2x300AH batteries, or build a couple yourself.
 

john_morris_uk

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Interesting thread - but no replies.

I thought I'd refresh it to keep it active.

I've had a drop in, roundly condemned here, it has not caught fire, yet, it works as it says on the box. I monitor what it is doing daily. Its a simple portable power station and I run a mains cable from the inverter into the, domestic, its a house, kitchen and when we bake bread, use the airfryer, use the induction hob etc we plug into the Lithium battery (+ inverter :) ). Our electriciy bills have been markedly reduced.

We have been so impressed I will eventually build a new 'power station' but will then build my own batteries, currently 200amp, and have a larger inverter, currently 1500W and more solar currently 300 W.

My idea was to build a power station (gave me a different project) that I could easily move to another boat (having sold our cat) or use it for off grid camping (still to do that). I never, initially, envisaged using it in the home. But once it was all up and running I had to find a use for the electricity - hence the cable to the kitchen

But the battery, inverter and solars are too small.

I would say you need to double your ideas on batteries to 600amps, you need a big inverter and because of the vaguearies of weather 1,000w of solar. You only need 2 overcast days and you are running out of amp storage (or you need a fall back).

But I've been roundly condemned for my ideas - hopefully someone will answer your thread.


I'd suggest you get recommendations on battery and solar size from people who have used Lithium 24/7 as if you build too small its more expensive to extend, you need a different shunt, you need (or can use a more useful and) a bigger inverter. You might also need a bigger DC-DC charger or bigger charger from shore power (or both) The same people will advise on what you need for monitoring. Those who have built their own batteries will suggest you do the same - removing the costs of batteries you mention.

Jonathan
Thank you.

A few answers.

We’re on our boat in the Caribbean so building our own batteries is a non starter. (Importing the parts is beyond difficult…. It’s going to be difficult enough importing Victron units and Lithium Batteries. Etc)

I understand the point you are making about not building small, but as we’re not planning on installing an induction hob etc the system we’re envisaging is already much more capable than our planned needs.

There’s no more room for solar panels. We’ve already got the most we can fit as ‘wings’ held outboard of the lifelines. There’s no room on the coach roof and it’s really not practical to mount any in our bimini.

The point is that we’re really happy with our current 12 volt system on the load side. We just need to sort batteries and charging and control and monitoring.
 

john_morris_uk

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I would not pay Victron prices for batteries. Either build your own using EVE cells from Fogstar, or look at the Fogstar batteries.

OK

The Lynx stuff is overpriced and you don't really need it.

The BMS should shut down charging to prevent from overcharge, shut down loads to prevent over discharge, shut down charging if it's too hot or cold etc

Stick with Victron for the DC-DC charger and mains charger. Fit a Victron Smartshunt, with or without the display. I don't have the display, i use Bluetooth to monitor, but i do have fixed Android tablets for monitoring etc. I also have a Cerbo GX with the 7" touchscreen display, it is a good piece of kit, you can add tank levels t it and several other features.

If you fit more than one battery, connect each battery to a fuse, then an isolator switch, then to a busbar and onwards to the electrical systems. I would agree with Jonathan, fit 2x300AH batteries, or build a couple yourself.
Thanks and all points noted. My feeling was the the Lynx stuff is OTT for our purposes both in size and cost.

So I’m thinking that all the charging systems I’ve described plus a smart shunt plus Cerbo GX plus display will meet our needs. I’m minded to source two 300 aH batteries. Perhaps from one of the many ‘Victron approved’ manufacturers/suppliers.
 

Neeves

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Thanks John

One of the factors driving our use of 'my' power station was the comment from Geem or Kelpie aka Seachange that they used induction hob(s) because they were cooler. This resonated with us, as Sydney can be hot and most residents then combat the heat, wasted heat, gas or mains electric powering traditional cooking by turning on the AC - seems daft. We bought a single hob, portable induction hob and confirming what Geem or Seachange said - its cooler. The induction hob was not planned and the inverter is too small so we cannot turn it right up. Josephine is most used to traditional Asian cooking and rejected the idea of induction - until she used it.

The Caribbean might not be hot in the winter - but something to think about. Hobs are cheap as chips (though maybe not where you are)

Our hob has a (noisy) fan - Josephine complains - maybe we should have paid more and bought from somewhere we could try before we buy (like a shop).

Just one of the unpredicted, and underrated, aspects of Lithium.

Jonathan
 

john_morris_uk

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Understood Jonathan. It’s 28-30 C in the Caribbean in winter so pleasantly warm.

We have just installed an induction hob in our new kitchen in our house in the UK so we’re familiar with them and how good they are and how much power some need. (Our one at home is a large Miele one that needs an 11kW supply!!!) The problem we have in Serendipity is one of storage. I can’t imagine finding room for an induction hob. Assuming we keep our cooker for its oven, a hob would have to perch somewhere in the galley or on the existing gimballed cooker. Even if we did find a way of accommodating a hob, we have a Whisperpower generator that I fitted new for this trip that were very happy with and I’m not about to remove.

We’ve not got aircon, unless you count opening the hatches and turning the fans on. We’ve sometimes yearned for it when the boat is ashore in the tropical heat and the cabin gets up to 40C or so, but again the problem is ‘no room’.
 

Sea Change

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Hi John
You really don't need to make it too complicated or expensive.
I certainly wouldn't buy the batteries themselves from Victron, I don't understand how they cost so much.
We are planning on heading to SXM on Tuesday so would be happy to show you our system.
 

john_morris_uk

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Hi John
You really don't need to make it too complicated or expensive.
I certainly wouldn't buy the batteries themselves from Victron, I don't understand how they cost so much.
We are planning on heading to SXM on Tuesday so would be happy to show you our system.
Rob, that would be great except we’re now in the BVI’s.
 

Sea Change

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We had battery components shipped in to Grenada last summer. Certainly not the cheapest way of doing it but we needed the extra capacity. It worked out at $550 for the four cells and BMS to assemble a 280Ah battery. I was tagging along with another boat so that cost includes the shipping and duties on a pro rata basis. That's mid 2023 prices so you could probably do it cheaper today.
I'm not well versed in the cost of 'drop in' batteries.

Happy to chat about your project but maybe easier to continue on WhatsApp?
 

PaulRainbow

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Thanks and all points noted. My feeling was the the Lynx stuff is OTT for our purposes both in size and cost.
I agree.
So I’m thinking that all the charging systems I’ve described plus a smart shunt plus Cerbo GX plus display will meet our needs. I’m minded to source two 300 aH batteries. Perhaps from one of the many ‘Victron approved’ manufacturers/suppliers.
If you go for drop in batteries, make sure you get a decent BMS with active balancing and Bluetooth, i would not pay Victrons ridiculous prices. For about £360 you could buy the cells and a good BMS, here in the UK, but i understand your shipping issues.

You can see the Smartshunt and solar controller via Bluetooth too, adding the Cerbo puts them both in the same place, plus it has a few other useful features, such as adding tank sensors, monitoring from anywhere in the World (with an internet connection) etc.
 

Sea Change

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Despite being a huge advocate of lithium I have to admit I don't actually know what Lynx or Cerbo are.
I use a £50 battery monitor, and every few days I check the app for the BMS because I like to know both batteries are still online and happy and balanced. And that's it.
 

john_morris_uk

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I agree.

If you go for drop in batteries, make sure you get a decent BMS with active balancing and Bluetooth, i would not pay Victrons ridiculous prices. For about £360 you could buy the cells and a good BMS, here in the UK, but i understand your shipping issues.

You can see the Smartshunt and solar controller via Bluetooth too, adding the Cerbo puts them both in the same place, plus it has a few other useful features, such as adding tank sensors, monitoring from anywhere in the World (with an internet connection) etc.
Latest plan is to buy drop in batteries with inbuilt BMS checking that they’re using a grade cells and that the BMS is reputable with good balancing built-in. Our current usage is that we rarely discharge more than 70 aH but to allow for upgrades and perhaps putting a microwave in the galley, we’re going to try and get two 300 aH batteries.
 

Sea Change

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I've had a drop in, roundly condemned here,
Nobody is condemning drop in batteries. Other than the dirt cheap ones with insufficient current capacity and no BMS, they are just fine.

Its a simple portable power station
Ok a power station is not the same thing as a 'drop in'. These all in one units certainly will attract some negative comments. It's a very expensive way to add lithium and leaves you with a single unit which is bulky and heavy. You are restricted to the included charger, inverter, MPPT, which may or may not fit your needs.
It's a bit like getting an inclusive package holiday. Only worth it if you actually want what's on offer.
For most people, it's better to buy the battery, charger, inverter etc separately. Especially if you don't need a big inverter and already have an MPPT, like John.
The power stations can make sense as temporary or mobile solutions, which is what they're marketed as. And for those who are chronically afraid of making a crimped connection or who do not understand the basics of sizing cables and fuses, then perhaps they do offer an idiot proof way to add lithium. But you are paying a big premium for it.


I would say you need to double your ideas on batteries to 600amps, you need a big inverter and because of the vaguearies of weather 1,000w of solar. You only need 2 overcast days and you are running out of amp storage (or you need a fall back).
We are running 1350w of solar and 550Ah of battery. We have never charged this from anything other than solar. We do not have a DC-DC charger connected and we have never been on shore power. We cook every meal with electricity. We also run more than 250l of fridge space. The lowest I have ever seen the batteries go is about 60%.
On the previous boat we had 970w of rather elderly solar feeding the same batteries. The difference in charging power is very noticeable with the new panels. We just do not think about power any more. I don't even bother to turn off the big inverter overnight, even though it draws 2A on standby.

All of this is however irrelevant to the OP who is not planning on installing such a large system.


if you build too small its more expensive to extend
I think this is a minor point. I more than doubled my battery capacity and barely had to make any changes. The size of the DC-DC charger is dictated by the alternator, not the battery. The sizes of the shunt, cables, and fuses are dictated by the maximum current that will be drawn. But I agree that it's sensible to future proof by sizing these components generously. It will also reduce voltage drop and heat, so other than the slight increase in cost there's no reason not to.
 

Sea Change

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Latest plan is to buy drop in batteries with inbuilt BMS checking that they’re using a grade cells and that the BMS is reputable with good balancing built-in. Our current usage is that we rarely discharge more than 70 aH but to allow for upgrades and perhaps putting a microwave in the galley, we’re going to try and get two 300 aH batteries.
That's a massive amount of capacity. You won't regret it, other than the cost.
We lived with an electric galley for over a year using a single 270Ah battery. It was sufficient but if we had a cloudy day we either dialed back our cooking ambitions or turned the gas back on.
For a boat primarily cooking on gas, it would have been plenty, all of the time. Bear in mind we had no other charge source except solar.

We now have 550Ah and just don't have to think about power, ever. Ok we have a lot of solar but you have a generator 🙂
 

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We’d love to have more solar but there just isn’t any more space.

If I could start again I’d have designed and built a large arch incorporating a dinghy hoist with room for lots of solar on top. But we’ve got what we’ve got and it’s not all being changed now.

IMG_7461.jpegIMG_7460.jpeg

We miss the space in the cockpit locker that the generator takes up but it gives us lots of flexibility.
 

noelex

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I can’t imagine finding room for an induction hob. Assuming we keep our cooker for its oven, a hob would have to perch somewhere in the galley or on the existing gimballed cooker. Even if we did find a way of accommodating a hob, we have a Whisperpower generator that I fitted new for this trip that were very happy with and I’m not about to remove.
On top of the gimballed cooker, it works well for us. I constructed some wooden supports that fix the feet. If we ever need the gas burners (such as when cruising in a cold climates with limited solar), the induction unit can be lifted off and quickly converted back to gas.

The single-burner units are not large, although ours is an commercial unit, which is bigger than most.

You_Doodle_2025-02-02T15_54_37Z.jpeg
 
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rogerthebodger

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John, it looks like you have davits supporting your dingy could you not add a frame on the top of the davits to support your solar panels.

I did build an arch but changed mt cockpit cover to a rigid cover supported in the same way as my cockpit cover and mooned extra solar panels on top of my cockpit cover

Plenty of sun so power on the east coast of Africa


Showing panels on aft arch and frame for cockpit cover where the extra solar panels are now fitted.
 
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