LifeJackets - is everyone a pansy these days?

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If lifejackets get more and more comfortable to wear, would you still only wear in bad weather (when conditions demand)? Serious question as interested in reason not to wear.

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Not sniping at you, but I don't think you have been reading some of the posts properly?? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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If lifejackets get more and more comfortable to wear, would you still only wear in bad weather (when conditions demand)? Serious question as interested in reason not to wear.

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Actually that question has not really been asked/answered. People have said they dont like wearing LJs because they feel uncomfortable (so the question is justified). Other reasons for not wearing a LJ have included that they feel the conditions do not demand one and because they dont want to. The discussions so far have largly (not all) been justification for wearing one and not why not?

Also, in previous posts people have mentioned if they had children onboard they would make them wear one and would also also wear one themselves nomatter what the conditions were. What is the difference wither you have children onboard or not? If its to set a good example, surely...
 
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If lifejackets get more and more comfortable to wear, would you still only wear in bad weather (when conditions demand)? Serious question as interested in reason not to wear.

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Not sniping at you, but I don't think you have been reading some of the posts properly?? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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I think I have (at one fell swoop /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif), which is why I asked the question.

There have been lots of opinions on both sides which boil down to 1) only wear a LJ when the conditions require it and 2) wear always on the offchance of an accident.

What I am trying to understand is that if, in a hypothetical future, LJs become as comfortable as a Shirt or Jumper, would Fireball still only wear in bad conditions.
 
Don't know Dave, but I can say that I wouldn't. As I said, I prefer to be attached properly to my boat, there are times when I do wear a life jacket, like rowing to and fro in a hard dinghy, but in an inflatable, probably not, after all it isn't going to sink even if swamped, and it has plenty of rope holds if I should fall out of it, and they are easy enough to grab hold of. I also know that I can get back into mine, if I fall out of it.....guess how I know that? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My attitude to LJs, is born of the kind of sailing I do, it is not an attitude that would suit everybody, and others must make their own mind up as to where they stand on that.

Let me ask you though, how many single handed long distance sailors do you know of, that wear a life jacket 24-7?
 
If there was a LJ jumper and/or t-shirt then I'd be more inclined to wear it as normal clothing. As it is the LJ is "another" item of clothing to put on and TBH we don't usually venture out in the conditions when you're more likely to need it.
We (almost) always have LJs onboard (occasionally forget them - but there are a few manual spares onboard anyway.) and they are pre-fitted.

As I've said before - can't remember if it was this thread ... when I've had a 10yr old onboard and going outside the harbour I insisted on LJs for the whole crew as it would not be fair on the 10yrold if they had to wear one and we didnt ...
 
Chrusty1: You asked how long we'd expect to survive in a ditching scenario.

I have to confess that I don't know for sure what the survival times are for a winter ditching. Alot will depend on the conditions - particularly the amount of spray. In reasonable conditions, the suit/lifejacket/sprayhood combination should keep us going for a couple of hours. If we can make it to the liferaft and actually get in it, at least 12 hours. I know from my own experience when playing dummy for rescue exercises that the main problem is keeping your face out of the water AND spray. Unless the water is swimming pool calm, you have real problems keeping salt water out of your mouth, even when wearing a lifejacket.

The lifejacket we wear is a waist coat type and is pretty comfortable. It has a light and whistle (just like the ones on the aeroplanes) but the major bits are the sprayhood, the EPIRB and the day/night flare, all built in. Oh and there is a lifting strop built in for recovery.

I found the following document on the old internet which you might find interesting. Don't be put off by the fact that it is published by the HSE - there is some interesting and sobering stuff in it, especially conclusion 3.


HSE Survival Times Document
 
Lots of reasons not to wear a lifejacket, here is a few.

1) I like to get a suntan
2) Its flat calm, the water is warm
3) I will not accidentally gybe as I know at all times my point of sail. If I am running downwind and there is any risk I will put a preventer on.
4) If it is rough I wear a harness and clip on.
5) If you think it is a good idea to wear a lifejacket at all times fine I will not object to you doing so, but do not preach to me.

I ride a bike as well and dont wear a crash helmet, tsk tsk. But wear one if I consider conditions make it advisable

I do wear a lifejacket for these reasons amongst others.

1) It is foggy (risk of collision) but i also clip on.
2) It is Very rough ( I also clip on)
3) It is dark and there are just my wife and I on a night passage ( I also clip on)
4) I insist non swimmers wear one.
5)Anyone who feels more comfortable wearing one may of course wear one by choice.
 
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1) It is foggy (risk of collision) but i also clip on.


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Ohh dear, another hot potato there.

Plenty of folk will point out that being harnessed during risk of collision is a risky practice. The very time you may need to abandon ship in a hurry, you're fumbling trying to get unhooked (that's assuming you have the time to get clear before the collision occurs).
 
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If lifejackets get more and more comfortable to wear, would you still only wear in bad weather (when conditions demand)? Serious question as interested in reason not to wear.

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The main one is mobility in the water. As an emergency services friend once said 'once the LJ goes off you're as much a casualty as the guy you're rescuing'. Also the only real MOB's I've ever seen the guys self recovered - up the ladder or onto a pontoon and with an LJ those climbs would have been harder - in cold water the delay while someone go to them to assist might well have been fatal. Getting into a Liferaft is also harder with an LJ on. The other one is in the Dinghy - fall of your dinghy in the middle of the night do you want to be a) suspended on your back in freezing water, or b) swimming like hell towards relatively near safety.

However, the reason I, personally, get really pissed off with self righteous morons who whine on about how they wear LJ's 24/7 is that to a man they haven't got the wit to consider effective protection against head injury or cold water which by any figures I've ever seen these are overwhelmingly more common dangers at sea than drowning. Yet these twonks actually seem proud of this ignorance and want to ram it down your throat! (Indeed the inability of the self righteous to think the issue through is demonstrated by the fact that someone has to *ask* what the disadvantages of LJs are!)

I'll continue to put my faith in clipping on and if I was in the drink in the middle of the channel right now I'd happily swap an LJ for a drysuit and an EPIRB.

And finally to put all this in perspective sailing is far saver than the drive to the marina and lets not forget before inflatable LJ's came along we all clipped on and rarely wore LJs.
 
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is that to a man they haven't got the wit to consider effective protection against head injury or cold water which by any figures I've ever seen these are overwhelmingly more common dangers at sea than drowning.

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Oh, really? I guess you haven't been around here long enough to have actually bothered to find out about any of us, or read any of the threads going back over many years. When things are rough, and water conditions cold, I wear a drysuit with suitable gear, for exactly these reasons.
 
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being harnessed during risk of collision is a risky practice.

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Not being harnessed in fog is also a risky business.

On a case by case basis we have to decide for ourselves if we think we're more likely to be jolted into the drink in a minor knock with a similar boat at low speed or sunk quickly.

Yet another case where advocating hard and fast rules is laughably foolish.
 
Your post was a little aggressive!! and for the most it is better to be wearing a LJ in the water than not ... there are very few occaisions when a LJ will impeed you ... if you can't swim on your back then you better get swimming lessons!

As for clipping on in fog - I thought this was not sensible practice - having LJ on and being on deck is ... the only time you may want to clip on in fog is if you are going forward and there is chance you'll be going over the side ... if you're safe in the cockpit then I wouldn't think you'd want to be clipped on.
 
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effective protection against head injury or cold water which by any figures I've ever seen these are overwhelmingly more common dangers at sea than drowning.

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Again we are also in this vicious cycle...cold water, people swim more, loose more heat, peoples muscles stop working, cant stay above water then drown. (over simplification).

With a lifejacket...cold water, peoples muscles stop working, stay afloat, die from hypothermia.

I suppose its really a matter of whether you want to die quickly but nastly or slower and peacefully! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
(presuming your in the UK and not the Med)
 
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effective protection against head injury or cold water which by any figures I've ever seen these are overwhelmingly more common dangers at sea than drowning.

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I suppose its really a matter of whether you want to die quickly and nastly or peacefully!

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Dunno. If your mates are alert and crash stop all you've got to do is survive the swim back to the boat. I reckon in most leisure sailing conditions you've got an excellent chance of doing that.

Of course if the auto pilot's on and the wife's asleep or your boat's sunk with the handheld/EPIRB inside...
 
Have a look at the link I posted earlier Windfinder. It seems to suggest that people more often than not drown rather than die from the cold. The bottom line is to survive a dip you have to first and foremost keep your airway clear of water, both on initial entry into the water (cold shock) and thereafter. Common sense of course. But believe me, it is easier said than done when there's much of a sea running, especially without a lifejacket.

There is a technique to both swimming and entering a liferaft with a lifejacket on. In the case of the liferaft it is easier to enter a liferaft when you have some buoyancy in the lifejacket. And of course you can quite quickly take the gas out of an inflated jacket.

I don't dispute the fact that prevention is better than cure. But here's a question: How many boats do you see with jackstays in a position so that if one was to fall over the side, their harness will drag them through the water? How easy is breathing then?

I won't apologise for being a self righteous moron. The experiences I have had clearly indicate the importance of lifejackets and I choose to wear one. Experience has also shown me that many people don't fully appreciate the hazards of falling in. And of wearing a drysuit without a life jacket (I would imagine the EPIRB would work best if it is in the shin pocket). So please don't mind me if I choose to put posts on here that might just get people thinking about survival in the water in a bit more detail. Whether they do of course, is entirely up to them.
 
No point wearing a drysuit if you don't have the right clothing beneath it though ... it isn't the waterproof bit that keeps you warm it is what you've got on underneath! I've been cold wearing a drysuit in Summer!!
 
which is exactly why I stated only a few posts ago, that I wear a drysuit with suitable kit. Usually thermal full body unclothes, thick socks, Wooly Bear salopette, and Wooly Bear top etc,
 
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