Rabbie
Well-Known Member
IIRC this is why a lot of people 'drown' in avalanches, as they breathe in snow.
LifeJackets - is everyone a pansy these days?
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
WindFinder
N/A
"Swimming would be inefficient during the first 1–3 min of immersion because of the head-out posture required to maintain the high ventilation required by the cold shock… Swimming, which requires a horizontal posture, would therefore be very difficult or impossible to perform at this time and can lead to rapid exhaustion and panic”
I've swum a lot in waters I know to be 4 degs with no wet suit. (admitedly I don't stay in long!) The initial stinging cold spurs me into the fastest swimming I ever do as I try to warm up! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mind you you can't fault the conclusion - in UK waters cold is the killer.
I've swum a lot in waters I know to be 4 degs with no wet suit. (admitedly I don't stay in long!) The initial stinging cold spurs me into the fastest swimming I ever do as I try to warm up! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mind you you can't fault the conclusion - in UK waters cold is the killer.
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
Each to their own of course, but I insist on wearing a lifejacket and strongly suggest that others on board also wear one, even if I am not the skipper. In my book a skipper should always wear a lifejacket, after all if they are the one to go overboard, are they not increasing the risk to their crew by not wearing one?
It's no skin off my nose if people choose not to wear one, but spare a thought for your wife and family in the (very?) unlikely scenario when a police constable turns up on your doorstep to bring the bad news. I have been involved with incidents where people have died 10 yards from the shore in calm summer conditions. Sometimes there is a body.
Do people really choose not to wear one because it gives them a better "buzz"? How selfish.
It's no skin off my nose if people choose not to wear one, but spare a thought for your wife and family in the (very?) unlikely scenario when a police constable turns up on your doorstep to bring the bad news. I have been involved with incidents where people have died 10 yards from the shore in calm summer conditions. Sometimes there is a body.
Do people really choose not to wear one because it gives them a better "buzz"? How selfish.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Would it not be possible for you to make your point without the derogatory one liner at the end?
There have been many opinions on this subject, some valid, for some people, but none of the opinions so far expressed, can be considered valid or applicable to all people.
The single hander, in mid ocean, has a different set of parameters, to the family out for a coastal cruise. Horses for courses??? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
There have been many opinions on this subject, some valid, for some people, but none of the opinions so far expressed, can be considered valid or applicable to all people.
The single hander, in mid ocean, has a different set of parameters, to the family out for a coastal cruise. Horses for courses??? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
In my book a skipper should always wear a lifejacket, after all if they are the one to go overboard, are they not increasing the risk to their crew by not wearing one?
[/ QUOTE ]
No ... you are WRONG ... if you want the skipper to always be onboard no matter what then you better wrap them in bubblewrap and tie them in ... a lifejacket on the skipper makes NO DIFFERENCE TO THE SAFETY of the rest of the crew if they have NO FLIPPIN IDEA on HOW TO RECOVER THE SKIPPER ... (s)he may as well be dead ...
You are exactly the sort of person I was trying to target with this thread - the one who "wears a lifejacket because it is safer to do so" ... with NO thought as to what you are trying to protect yourself against!
For your last paragraph - I don't get a buzz from not wearing my lifejacket - just the freedom of choice of when to wear it. You don't need all your safety kit on all the time ...
Just for additional thoughts - if you (or anyone reading this thread) aways where a lifejacket - does that include down below? What happens if the boat turtles due to keel failure ... your LJ goes off and you cannot swim DOWN to the companionway to get yourself out of the boat ... so you are STUCK in a hull that is probably going to sink quite quickly ... your lifejacket will not save you then ...
In my book a skipper should always wear a lifejacket, after all if they are the one to go overboard, are they not increasing the risk to their crew by not wearing one?
[/ QUOTE ]
No ... you are WRONG ... if you want the skipper to always be onboard no matter what then you better wrap them in bubblewrap and tie them in ... a lifejacket on the skipper makes NO DIFFERENCE TO THE SAFETY of the rest of the crew if they have NO FLIPPIN IDEA on HOW TO RECOVER THE SKIPPER ... (s)he may as well be dead ...
You are exactly the sort of person I was trying to target with this thread - the one who "wears a lifejacket because it is safer to do so" ... with NO thought as to what you are trying to protect yourself against!
For your last paragraph - I don't get a buzz from not wearing my lifejacket - just the freedom of choice of when to wear it. You don't need all your safety kit on all the time ...
Just for additional thoughts - if you (or anyone reading this thread) aways where a lifejacket - does that include down below? What happens if the boat turtles due to keel failure ... your LJ goes off and you cannot swim DOWN to the companionway to get yourself out of the boat ... so you are STUCK in a hull that is probably going to sink quite quickly ... your lifejacket will not save you then ...
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
You are exactly the sort of person I was trying to target with this thread - the one who "wears a lifejacket because it is safer to do so" ... with NO thought as to what you are trying to protect yourself against!
For your last paragraph - I don't get a buzz from not wearing my lifejacket - just the freedom of choice of when to wear it. You don't need all your safety kit on all the time ...
Just for additional thoughts - if you (or anyone reading this thread) aways where a lifejacket - does that include down below? What happens if the boat turtles due to keel failure ... your LJ goes off and you cannot swim DOWN to the companionway to get yourself out of the boat ... so you are STUCK in a hull that is probably going to sink quite quickly ... your lifejacket will not save you then ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, one could alway remove said LJ and then swim down and out, but then if the boat was on it's way down, and you were a long way from assistance, you are screwed really anyway.......better check those keel bolts I reckon! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
From what I have read so far within this thread, there seems to be a lot of people that would sooner not have to think about things, after all, if you wear your LJ all the time, you can't go wrong can you?? then if the worse should happen, maybe some-one will have some-one else to blame, and of course sue? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Can't really see that this thread has anywhere much to go now, obviously a lot of people have very entrenched points of view, and only want to see things from their own perspective.
Though I am having an awful lot of trouble understanding why some-one could possibly think that having an LJ on for when you fall from your boat into the water, is better than making sure that you don't fall off your boat in the first place???? Like I said before, there are definately times when it is sensible to be wearing an LJ, but then there are times when an LJ is just a pain in the ass!
Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose, and the H&S numpties are in the ascendant, I'm surprised that somebody hasn't had a go at me for being down right irresponsible for sailing single handed!
You are exactly the sort of person I was trying to target with this thread - the one who "wears a lifejacket because it is safer to do so" ... with NO thought as to what you are trying to protect yourself against!
For your last paragraph - I don't get a buzz from not wearing my lifejacket - just the freedom of choice of when to wear it. You don't need all your safety kit on all the time ...
Just for additional thoughts - if you (or anyone reading this thread) aways where a lifejacket - does that include down below? What happens if the boat turtles due to keel failure ... your LJ goes off and you cannot swim DOWN to the companionway to get yourself out of the boat ... so you are STUCK in a hull that is probably going to sink quite quickly ... your lifejacket will not save you then ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, one could alway remove said LJ and then swim down and out, but then if the boat was on it's way down, and you were a long way from assistance, you are screwed really anyway.......better check those keel bolts I reckon! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
From what I have read so far within this thread, there seems to be a lot of people that would sooner not have to think about things, after all, if you wear your LJ all the time, you can't go wrong can you?? then if the worse should happen, maybe some-one will have some-one else to blame, and of course sue? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Can't really see that this thread has anywhere much to go now, obviously a lot of people have very entrenched points of view, and only want to see things from their own perspective.
Though I am having an awful lot of trouble understanding why some-one could possibly think that having an LJ on for when you fall from your boat into the water, is better than making sure that you don't fall off your boat in the first place???? Like I said before, there are definately times when it is sensible to be wearing an LJ, but then there are times when an LJ is just a pain in the ass!
Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose, and the H&S numpties are in the ascendant, I'm surprised that somebody hasn't had a go at me for being down right irresponsible for sailing single handed!
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
Chrusty1 - Sorry for the one liner, in retrospect it is a little harsh. Though I do take exception at being labeled a pansy. And no I wouldn't call you irresponsible for sailing single handed.
Fireball, Your original post claiming that I and many other sailors are pansies is in my view out of order. I don't believe you have a right to question my (or indeed anyone else's) attitude to risk. Having been a member of a SAR crew I know EXACTLY what it is I am protecting myself from by wearing a lifejacket. Moreover, I am not wearing a lifejacket just for myself. By wearing one, I have more chance of coming home and continuing to pay the mortgage. Also the crew have a better chance of finding me if I were to go over the side. Afterall I would hate to cut short my sailing career.
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
Fireball, Your original post claiming that I and many other sailors are pansies is in my view out of order. I don't believe you have a right to question my (or indeed anyone else's) attitude to risk. Having been a member of a SAR crew I know EXACTLY what it is I am protecting myself from by wearing a lifejacket. Moreover, I am not wearing a lifejacket just for myself. By wearing one, I have more chance of coming home and continuing to pay the mortgage. Also the crew have a better chance of finding me if I were to go over the side. Afterall I would hate to cut short my sailing career.
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
On the issue of the boat turning turtle, will there not be an air gap in the cabin? At least the lifejacket will take you to that. You would then have time to deflate the jacket and swim out, reinflating the jacket once clear. But to answer your question, I tend not to wear a LJ when below.
fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Fireball, Your original post claiming that I and many other sailors are pansies is in my view out of order.
[/ QUOTE ]First off, I didn't call anyone a pansy - I mearly asked if we are all becoming pansies .... you assumed the role of pansy yourself ...
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe you have a right to question my (or indeed anyone else's) attitude to risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
I, and everyone else has the right to question everything - that is one of the privillages of being in a country that has free speech. I also think it is vital that you know what you are protecting yourself against when you wear a LJ ... it is not the be-all and end-all of saving your life onboard ... there are a lot of other things that need to be in place to effect your survival if you are unlucky enough to go over .
[ QUOTE ]
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
[/ QUOTE ] And hopefully a few more ppl will think carefully about clipping on earlier or taking more care around the boat ...
I will continue to not wear my LJ where I'm confident that I am very unlikely to go over the side ... (except when I'm crewing for a skipper that requests I wear one)
Fireball, Your original post claiming that I and many other sailors are pansies is in my view out of order.
[/ QUOTE ]First off, I didn't call anyone a pansy - I mearly asked if we are all becoming pansies .... you assumed the role of pansy yourself ...
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe you have a right to question my (or indeed anyone else's) attitude to risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
I, and everyone else has the right to question everything - that is one of the privillages of being in a country that has free speech. I also think it is vital that you know what you are protecting yourself against when you wear a LJ ... it is not the be-all and end-all of saving your life onboard ... there are a lot of other things that need to be in place to effect your survival if you are unlucky enough to go over .
[ QUOTE ]
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
[/ QUOTE ] And hopefully a few more ppl will think carefully about clipping on earlier or taking more care around the boat ...
I will continue to not wear my LJ where I'm confident that I am very unlikely to go over the side ... (except when I'm crewing for a skipper that requests I wear one)
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Chrusty1 - Sorry for the one liner, in retrospect it is a little harsh. Though I do take exception at being labeled a pansy. And no I wouldn't call you irresponsible for sailing single handed.
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
No problem, it was getting a bit like one of those an**or debates / arguments really, people do tend to get a bit heated at times. I don't think "Fireball" intended that anyone should assume that they were being called a "Pansey" though I have been called worse! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What I think he was getting at, and I am sure he will correct me if I have it wrong was...........Are we all, or a lot of us, just wearing lifejackets because we think it will keep us safe, regardless of actually thinking about why we are wearing them? For myself, I can't agree with you that prevention is not always effective, if it is properly thought through it is. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the way that some folks have their jack lines / stays set up beggars belief! never mind the length of their harness lines.....those folks might as well stick a noose around their necks and jump over the side. I could explain further, but to be honest, it's all been done before, by better / more experienced men that me, and it's all out there to glean should folks want to.
My opinion is simple really, and it's this.........Life Jackets have there place amongst the many options a sailor has available to him, for being "safe" at sea, and depending on what the circumstances are at the time, they should be considered along with all of the other options.......they are not the be all and save all, that some people seem to be thinking they are. They are also, only as good as the maintenance and correct fitting of them will allow them to be.
Why did I say "safe"........well speaking for myself, and I dare say a few others, I think that it is impossible to be totally safe at sea, it's one of the reasons I go to sea, otherwise, where is the adventure? If I wanted to stay safe, I would stay at home and collect stamps! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Chrusty1 - Sorry for the one liner, in retrospect it is a little harsh. Though I do take exception at being labeled a pansy. And no I wouldn't call you irresponsible for sailing single handed.
I wholly agree that prevention is better than cure, but prevention is not always effective and part of the fun of sailing is its unpredictability and having to cope with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
No problem, it was getting a bit like one of those an**or debates / arguments really, people do tend to get a bit heated at times. I don't think "Fireball" intended that anyone should assume that they were being called a "Pansey" though I have been called worse! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What I think he was getting at, and I am sure he will correct me if I have it wrong was...........Are we all, or a lot of us, just wearing lifejackets because we think it will keep us safe, regardless of actually thinking about why we are wearing them? For myself, I can't agree with you that prevention is not always effective, if it is properly thought through it is. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the way that some folks have their jack lines / stays set up beggars belief! never mind the length of their harness lines.....those folks might as well stick a noose around their necks and jump over the side. I could explain further, but to be honest, it's all been done before, by better / more experienced men that me, and it's all out there to glean should folks want to.
My opinion is simple really, and it's this.........Life Jackets have there place amongst the many options a sailor has available to him, for being "safe" at sea, and depending on what the circumstances are at the time, they should be considered along with all of the other options.......they are not the be all and save all, that some people seem to be thinking they are. They are also, only as good as the maintenance and correct fitting of them will allow them to be.
Why did I say "safe"........well speaking for myself, and I dare say a few others, I think that it is impossible to be totally safe at sea, it's one of the reasons I go to sea, otherwise, where is the adventure? If I wanted to stay safe, I would stay at home and collect stamps! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
fireball
Well-Known Member
Yup - that is exactly what I was aiming at ...
and it would not have gone on so far if I'd just posted a thread titled "Why do you wear your lj" ... now would I?! ... far better to insult a few ppl first to get their blood boiling ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
and it would not have gone on so far if I'd just posted a thread titled "Why do you wear your lj" ... now would I?! ... far better to insult a few ppl first to get their blood boiling ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Yup - that is exactly what I was aiming at ...
and it would not have gone on so far if I'd just posted a thread titled "Why do you wear your lj" ... now would I?! ... far better to insult a few ppl first to get their blood boiling ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Pah! you call that an insult..............choir boy stuff that was! Sadly I doubt very much that a couple of forumites banging the drum will make much difference to what any of them think.
Still, it was interesting, and quite revealing in some ways, I am thinking that next time I am happily plodding along on a nice warm sunny day, in a balmy three to four, and I see some piece of plastic fantastic, festooned with life jacket wearing sailor folk, I will about course and get out of there fast! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yup - that is exactly what I was aiming at ...
and it would not have gone on so far if I'd just posted a thread titled "Why do you wear your lj" ... now would I?! ... far better to insult a few ppl first to get their blood boiling ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Pah! you call that an insult..............choir boy stuff that was! Sadly I doubt very much that a couple of forumites banging the drum will make much difference to what any of them think.
Still, it was interesting, and quite revealing in some ways, I am thinking that next time I am happily plodding along on a nice warm sunny day, in a balmy three to four, and I see some piece of plastic fantastic, festooned with life jacket wearing sailor folk, I will about course and get out of there fast! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Pah! you call that an insult..............choir boy stuff that was!
[/ QUOTE ] Ah - we are in R2R ... they are fairly easily wound up in here ... wouldn't get away with that in the Lounge!!
Pah! you call that an insult..............choir boy stuff that was!
[/ QUOTE ] Ah - we are in R2R ... they are fairly easily wound up in here ... wouldn't get away with that in the Lounge!!
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Oh I stay out of there these days, best to leave the lounge lizards to devour their offspring in peace........Lounge lizards?? More like a nest of vipers! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
OK you did get me hook line and sinker with the pansey line. But having the experience I do with regard to rescues and having volunteered myself to be rescued for exercises, I find it very difficult to justify not wearing a lifejacket when under way and particularly in the tender. I know the risk of falling in is small, but it never goes away and the chances are much improved with a lifejacket.
I do think that all new comers to the sport should address the lifejacket issue. It is better to wear one not knowing the reasons why than to not wear one in ignorance. Of course the best thing is to know the hazards and risks and act accordingly.
Perhaps Fireball you should start a new thread entitled "Jackstays - Has everyone been a sunflower all this time?"
And I promise to keep my hackles down!
I do think that all new comers to the sport should address the lifejacket issue. It is better to wear one not knowing the reasons why than to not wear one in ignorance. Of course the best thing is to know the hazards and risks and act accordingly.
Perhaps Fireball you should start a new thread entitled "Jackstays - Has everyone been a sunflower all this time?"
And I promise to keep my hackles down!
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
OK you did get me hook line and sinker with the pansey line. But having the experience I do with regard to rescues and having volunteered myself to be rescued for exercises, I find it very difficult to justify not wearing a lifejacket when under way and particularly in the tender. I know the risk of falling in is small, but it never goes away and the chances are much improved with a lifejacket.
I do think that all new comers to the sport should address the lifejacket issue. It is better to wear one not knowing the reasons why than to not wear one in ignorance. Of course the best thing is to know the hazards and risks and act accordingly.
Perhaps Fireball you should start a new thread entitled "Jackstays - Has everyone been a sunflower all this time?" And I promise to keep my hackles down!
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll let Pyro Bollix answer that, but having just looked at your profile, I would say he did very well drawing you out of your woodwork! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Like I said, having seen your profile, I can see where you are coming from, and what you have said is quite understandable, but question??
Heaven forbid, but say that you had to ditch in mid Winter in the North Sea, how long do you reckon you would survive?
One minute, three, fifteen?? I know that you blokes wear survival dry suits, but even so, you would have a very slim chance....No? Of course I am assuming that you survive the impact without injury, but say you suffered a broken leg or worse, and went into shock, what then?
I am not trying to undermine your opinion here, not one bit of it! You wouldn't get me up in one of them food mixers for love nor money! Just wondering if you might want to add something for the benefit of some of the less experienced on here? me too if it comes to that.
OK you did get me hook line and sinker with the pansey line. But having the experience I do with regard to rescues and having volunteered myself to be rescued for exercises, I find it very difficult to justify not wearing a lifejacket when under way and particularly in the tender. I know the risk of falling in is small, but it never goes away and the chances are much improved with a lifejacket.
I do think that all new comers to the sport should address the lifejacket issue. It is better to wear one not knowing the reasons why than to not wear one in ignorance. Of course the best thing is to know the hazards and risks and act accordingly.
Perhaps Fireball you should start a new thread entitled "Jackstays - Has everyone been a sunflower all this time?"
And I promise to keep my hackles down! [/ QUOTE ]
I'll let Pyro Bollix answer that, but having just looked at your profile, I would say he did very well drawing you out of your woodwork! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Like I said, having seen your profile, I can see where you are coming from, and what you have said is quite understandable, but question??
Heaven forbid, but say that you had to ditch in mid Winter in the North Sea, how long do you reckon you would survive?
One minute, three, fifteen?? I know that you blokes wear survival dry suits, but even so, you would have a very slim chance....No? Of course I am assuming that you survive the impact without injury, but say you suffered a broken leg or worse, and went into shock, what then?
I am not trying to undermine your opinion here, not one bit of it! You wouldn't get me up in one of them food mixers for love nor money! Just wondering if you might want to add something for the benefit of some of the less experienced on here? me too if it comes to that.
fireball
Well-Known Member
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
DavenHelen
Well-Known Member
If lifejackets get more and more comfortable to wear, would you still only wear in bad weather (when conditions demand)? Serious question as interested in reason not to wear.
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
Why did I say "safe"........well speaking for myself, and I dare say a few others, I think that it is impossible to be totally safe at sea, it's one of the reasons I go to sea, otherwise, where is the adventure? If I wanted to stay safe, I would stay at home and collect stamps! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Right on the money Chrusty1, stamps go on letters, sailors go to sea to push the envelope a bit.
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Even fully paid up Elfin Satiety Pansies like a bit of Risk: carefully managed and fully risk assessed, of course. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I often walk up a pontoon at night, in the dark without either an LJ or harness/leash for instance when going to the pub.
I carry a whistle and torch though, of course.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Right on the money Chrusty1, stamps go on letters, sailors go to sea to push the envelope a bit.
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Even fully paid up Elfin Satiety Pansies like a bit of Risk: carefully managed and fully risk assessed, of course. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I often walk up a pontoon at night, in the dark without either an LJ or harness/leash for instance when going to the pub.
I carry a whistle and torch though, of course.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Night Night Fireball, well shaken and well stirred! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Now wherefore art thine A*@?!&! word thread? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Night Night Fireball, well shaken and well stirred! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Now wherefore art thine A*@?!&! word thread? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
