LifeJackets - is everyone a pansy these days?

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Yes,it's entirely relevant, as good LJ's will have spray hoods, and if you've done any training, then the relevance of a spray hood becomes immediately apparent, as does the requirement for crotch straps.

[/ QUOTE ]Crikey! I must be out of touch...I've never even heard of a LJ with a spray hood. The last time I went shopping for LJs was at a LIBS. I bought what seemed to be the best quality and refused to compromise; I bought the best on display but no spray hoods. Can you give more details about this?
 
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Sorry, couldn't resist.

I hate to say it is well known, but it is well known that spray is a major killer for someone in the water.

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Th effects of spray are well known. In contrast deaths due to rain are not so well known and I'm asking you to cite one or more so I can read up on them myself.
 
sprayhood-LJweb.jpg


I'd feel a bit of a Charlie wearing one of those in the Med!
 
I've been trying to find an image and all I came up with after five minutes of googling was the thing above that looks like a bio-hazards hood. Nobody would fish you out of the water if you were wearing one of those /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I can't find anything that shows what's going on on the Baltic site except...

montage.jpg


The one middle bottom is our old friend from Porton Down. The others are all well-known international yachtspersons in typical yachtie poses /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Can't see any of them wearing that hood.

Where is all this going to end? It comes at a price beyond money, in my view. It's great that this safety is available for those going into extreme environments but should those of us who potter about the Channel or the Med in summer, in mostly pretty good conditions, be getting too hooked on this sort of kit??
 
I've worked at Porton Down, and trust me, the wouldn't wear anything of the sort to work in containment labs.

All you need on the lifejacket is a simple spraycover.
 
Would an aqualung be more appropriate?

Can you get inflatable flippers to help you swim faster to catch up with your boat that is now sailing away from you at 6 knots ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif


In general answer to those that I've inevitably upset by infering you may be a pansy ...
I was asking you to question WHY you are wearing a lifejacket ... rather than just follow parrot fashion and forget the reasons behind it ... seems to have worked wonders!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Night Night Pansies!!
 
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I was asking you to question WHY you are wearing a lifejacket ... rather than just follow parrot fashion and forget the reasons behind it ... seems to have worked wonders!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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I'm not so sure, there seems to be damn all independant thought going on. To me clipping on seems to be far more effective than wearing an LJ and I've seen no logical reasons in this thread to change my mind.

Two things that would improve safety on boats would be a comparative test of all the methods of summoning help at sea - EPRIB-Flares-VHF-Mobile and a league table of causes of death and injury on boats.

I'm willing to bet that flares wouldn't be the best method of summoning help and that drowning isn't the most significant cause of deaths. Yet flares and Life jackets get all the publicity. I think it's because they 'feel' nautical to newcomers to the sport. (We never used to wear LJs before inflatable LJs came along.)
 
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To me clipping on seems to be far more effective than wearing an LJ and I've seen no logical reasons in this thread to change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ] A point that was raised several times during the thread ... and with the inflatable (and comfortable) LJs with built in harnesses available - you can clip on and still have an LJ on ... best of both worlds?

Me - over 30 years sailing and I'm still here .... I'll continue to put my LJ when conditions dictate that it would be prudent to do so, and you can be sure that I'll have a very good handhold and sure footing whether I'm wearing it or not ... I have no intention of accidentally going over the side ... and holding on is one very good way to prevent that!
 
Brendan - if that was the only reason then they'd be a little sad .. however, wearing a LJ to prevent death is not a reason to wear a lifejacket ... and that is exactly what I've been trying to drum into ppl ...

just to prove I have been reading the thread - you said earlier on that you wear LJ with all your extra kit, because when you go boating you hurtle around at 30+ knots and there is nothing you could do if you hit a submerged object - without your LJ on it would be too late - you're likely to be thrown clear ... so - that is you, having done a risk assessment and decided that the risk is real and therefore you will wear a lifejacket ... sane and reasonable!

for the yachties - if we went motoring around ... we're talking about 5-6 knots - if we hit a submerged object we may fall over (if we're not sat down) but we're less likely to be thrown overboard ... we just do not have the same amount of momentum as you, traveling 6 times faster than us. So the chances of being cast overboard come down to the weather conditions and the inevitable dinghy -> shore transfer ..

Even with a sail up it has got to be F4+ to start getting interesting, even better if you have wind over tide to get a chop on ... statistically speaking you are more likely to suffer from being hit over the head with the boom/mainsheet than get thrown overboard - yet very few ppl wear safety helmets ...
You are also more likely to bash a shin or cut your hand - yet I don't know anyone who wears shinpads and again, very few wear protective gloves ...
So, with the minuscule chance of actually finding yourself in the wet stuff (again, talking boats who run round at sedate speeds - not the Disaster Area ships that the likes of you hurtle around in) we dutifully don our LJs in the vain hope that it may actually save our lives - without thought of what may occur to make us fall in in the first place ... remove the likelyhood of falling in and you remove the necessity for a LJ to be worn.

How can you reduce the risk of falling in ... some suggestions
1) Take more care about where you are stepping ...
2) Hold on
3) Clip on
4) Keep a better eye on the weather
5) Route all working lines back to the cockpit to reduce the requirement to go forward
6) Choose the boat design carefully

Once again - I'm not saying don't wear a LJ - just THINK about WHY you wear one and take more care so you don't need it!
 
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4ft swell swell, spray and breaking surf?
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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The Apocolypse Now theme has really kicked off then? First Chef and now AirCav surfing under fire- do you row to the pub under mortar fire then- I thought Southsea Marina was a bit rough, but....

To be fair I think it's me who is on some sort of black light trip- I will watch " the snail crawl along the edge of the razor blade... and go to bed! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
"In general answer to those that I've inevitably upset by infering you may be a pansy ... "

No offence, nice flowers Pansies- lots of pretty colours just like our inflated LJs, safety harnesses and leashes(orange) and helmets /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"I was asking you to question WHY you are wearing a lifejacket ... rather than just follow parrot fashion and forget the reasons behind it ... seems to have worked wonders!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif"

Questions, you are asking der questions? I am giving name und serial no only, but.....

Apart from 42 the answer is;

"Life is just a set of Drills ( with the one you want most missing)."
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Night Night Fireball, well shaken and well stirred! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Even though we are well over 100 foot we still demand that everyone wear lifejackets even when below - after all one may be urgently summoned on deck to push a genoa captive winch or reefing power button or such in a sudden squall and then accidently fall overboard in the panic.

But the real point of this post, seeing as the drift is now towards spray hoods, is that a yachtsman who had fallen overboard himself gave me some very good advice on the matter. He was very experienced in that he could be seen out on the Solent at least half a dozen times a year on summer Sundays, even in Force 5 conditions, and had attended an advanced sea survival course several times.

He found, as has been said above for many of these things, once overboard he found that the hood's deployment was not as easy as he had imagined. He also had the experience of having met a man in a pub once (and so classed as a close friend) who had just that same night drowned in his dinghy while rowing back to his boat as drunk as a skunk - like many of us he thought that ample evidence that lifejackets should be worn at all times on all boats no matter how big and no matter how benign the weather.

Now getting back to the spray hood point, his suggestion was the very good one that a condom should always be pulled over your head when away from the dock as they make perfect sprayhoods. So, like wearing a lifejacket all the time one will not be caught in an unsafe situation. We now require all crew and guests to wear condoms over their heads, as well as lifejackets, in case they fall overboard. That just to be safe side and as many have said above, if they do not comply they are immediately ordered ashore in disgrace.

It certainly works as we have never had a case of drowning, whether primary drowning, secondary drowning or even of tertiary drowning. That even though we have at least 3 guests or crew go over the side each week.

While using up space in this thread perhaps I should add a solution to the, as has been pointed out way back in the thread somewhere, threat to those that fall into cold water and are over a "certain" age of the shock killing them problem. Another good piece of advice the same seafaring gentleman provided was that while that was so it was practically unknown for someone who jumped voluntarily into cold water to suffer such. His advice was, and we brief all crew and guests on this, is that if one is over that "certain" age then if falling overboard just on the way over say to oneself in a very firm and loud voice as many times as one is able "I am jumping into the water not falling". That, apparantly, increases ones chance of survival manyfold.

Apologies for the long windedness but these matters are very important for our being prepared for and safe under any circumstance no matter how remote. After all sailing is all about being and playing the part, having the gear, keeping safe and looking good.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
To me clipping on seems to be far more effective than wearing an LJ and I've seen no logical reasons in this thread to change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ] A point that was raised several times during the thread ... and with the inflatable (and comfortable) LJs with built in harnesses available - you can clip on and still have an LJ on ... best of both worlds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Since inflatable LJs came along there's no reason *not* to wear an integrated LJ with your harness all the times you previously wore a harness. ...but if you're using it in 'LJ mode' not clipped on you still going to be suffering all the drawbacks of LJs.

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Me - over 30 years sailing and I'm still here

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Ditto. ...and most of that was pre-inflatable LJs when people just didn't wear LJ's - just harnesses.

I think the telling thing about this debate is that it's quite clear that it isn't a pro-anti LJ debate. It's a case of some people who don't comprehend the limitations of LJs and some people who do. I can't see anyone saying a LJ is never useful - there seem to be plenty of people saying it always is which is patently not true.
 
CelebrityScandal; wot a post, Cor blimey guv, 'ow you toffs do live.
Do you get your wind delivered each morning from Fortnums in a hamper too?
I bet even your paid hands have an en-suite jacuzzi, not a tin bath on a nail on the back rail like us oiks. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

WindFinder;
you are on the money- both harnesses and LJs etc have their drawbacks, which we have to be aware of- so LJ(hood+ crotch strap)+ intergrated harness and clipped on leash cover each others blind spots;
not falling in in the first place and not sinking straight away if you do from boat or tender(which has kill cord on o/b and rowlocks leashed, of course!). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
We're all going to die, it's a question of how, when, of deferring it if possible, or at least making it as painless as possible! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The thing about threads like this and the A**hor word is that those who have experience have a good old chinwag, and exchange viewpoints freely and frankly.
While newcomers to boating can use the shared experience to formulate their own positions for their boats, charters, etc.

Definite Win Win situation, with Fireball as a shy, self effacing Devils Advocate/ Agent Provocateur, chucking the odd thunderflash in to keep the pot boiling. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've only recently come to YBW forums, but found lot of good tech info on Eberspachers- original reason for logon, and other kit and a lot of fun as well, pontificating and being pontificated at. Better than the 18.00 lamp swinging session on a rally! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I just read this article and thought it was highly relevant to this discussion. The paper is on survival in Canadian waters where water temperatures used were 5-12oC so not too different to Scottish winters / Loch temperatures.

The article is…

Ducharme, M.B. and Lounsbury, D.S. (2007) Self-rescue swimming in cold water: the latest advice. Appl. Physiol. Nutr. Metab. 32, 799–807.

And available from here…

http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rpar...ile=h07-042.pdf

Here are some quotes from the paper;

1. “when compared with floating still, treading water and down proofing, two survival swimming behaviors, increased the cooling rate by 34% and 82%, respectively” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)

2. “Today, we understand that those initial responses to cold-water immersion are attributed to rapid skin cooling, which produces the physiological response of cold shock (Tipton 1989). The uncontrollable breathing, hyperventilation, gasp reflex, and dyspnoea observed early during cold-water immersion can lead to a lack of coordination between the swim stroke and respiration. In turn, these physiological responses would increase the risk of becoming panicked as a result of water inhalation, thus leading to an inability to swim and hold the head above water (Noakes 2000). Thus, cold shock may explain the swimming failure observed by Keatinge early during immersion in 5 °C water. This limitation can be overcome by ensuring that the respiratory responses have adapted and that the breathing pattern is under control (about 2–3 min) before initiating the swimming activity” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)

3. “The next consideration in a cold-water immersion scenario is cold shock. Swimming would be inefficient during the first 1–3 min of immersion because of the head-out posture required to maintain the high ventilation required by the cold shock… Swimming, which requires a horizontal posture, would therefore be very difficult or impossible to perform at this time and can lead to rapid exhaustion and panic” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)

4. “Certain tasks, like opening packages of flares, can become nearly impossible after the cold impairs dexterity and hardens materials that are designed to be pliable at room temperature” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)

5. “If one is wearing a PFD, then preventing heat loss is the primary concern over drowning (assuming that wave splash is not a major problem). The lateral thorax and groin have been found to be important regions of body heat loss (Hayward et al. 1973). Therefore, manipulating body posture to cover “thermovulnerable” areas is a reasonable approach to take in an effort to extend survival time. A position called the heat escape lessening posture (HELP) has been found to reduce the rate of cooling by approximately 1/3 (Hayward et al. 1973). These results were gathered from a study of subjects in 9–10 °C water, at ambient air temperature of 13–16 °C, a slight water current of 0.1–0.2 m/s, and small waves less than 15 cm (Hayward et al. 1973). To perform this posture, one adducts the shoulders, flexes the elbows to acute angles, flexes and adducts the hips, and flexes the knees (with the arms outside to “hug” the legs resting against the chest) (Hayward et al. 1973). This position, specifically designed to protect the groin and axillae, appeared maintainable with minimal effort for individuals wearing buoyant lifejackets” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)

6. “If no flotation device is available, then holding on to the wreckage is the best option (from the perspective of maintaining thermoneutrality). The limiting factor in this situation is the rapid development of muscle fatigue accelerated by the cooling of the muscle tissues of the arms and hands. This will result in losing grip and drowning. The second best option is treading water. Unfortunately, treading water results in about a 34% higher heat loss compared with passive flotation in a life jacket (Hayward et al. 1975a). It is, therefore, not recommended to swim about in an attempt to stay warm. Also, a person can only tread water for a limited amount of time before becoming fatigued, so one may have to alternate between treading water and either supine or prone flotation while awaiting rescue.” (Ducharme and Lounsbury, 2007)
 
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