NDG
Well-Known Member
But we are talking about using it for a shore line, which should be under reasonable tension and certainly not flapping about.
Knots
- Thread starter Danny_Labrador
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But we are talking about using it for a shore line, which should be under reasonable tension and certainly not flapping about.
prv
Well-Known Member
That’s interesting - the only uses I was aware of for the un-capsized form were decoration and for use with wire rope that will be wound onto a winch drum. In the latter case you’d need to seize the ends to the standing parts.
Pete
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
I have! A couple of years ago I was fitting my winter cover, a bit windy, I was on a ladder fixing a line to the eyelet in the plastic sheet, did a quick bowline and tugged it to tighten and it collapsed and I fell off the ladder... fortunately with only a few bruises. I'm now very careful tying ropes to the cover, especially when on a ladder.
SAMYL
Well-Known Member
You seem not to have noticed that I did say in my post that it will not come undone whilst under tension. You don't know what is going to happen during the night and the line might slacken so wouldn't it be wise to chose a knot of known security, if only to keep your mind at rest.
The OP was asking what knot to use and some suggested the bowline so I was advising that the bowline is not really suitable for the reasons mentioned. What is wrong with people when they will not accept a bit of sensible advice.
Thistle
Well-Known Member
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, I've used bowlines with long tails to secure my own yacht to the shore as the OP asked about with no problem.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
+1. I routinely use two bowlines to join two lengths of rope if needed. Whilst the ropes will never remain under the same degree of tension as the winds shift, there is always some degree of tension , if only because of the weight of the ropes.
Dutch01527
Well-Known Member
Any of the knots mentioned plus seized ends with small cable ties.
I know that it is not traditional but I cable tie just about all standing knots and shackles. I carry a small pair of snips and spare ties in my pockets all the time. My neighbor in the next berth suggested that it was “unseamanlike” in a very nice way. I replied that doing things efficiently and quickly was very seamanlike and that Nelson would have used them if they were available in his time.
I know that it is not traditional but I cable tie just about all standing knots and shackles. I carry a small pair of snips and spare ties in my pockets all the time. My neighbor in the next berth suggested that it was “unseamanlike” in a very nice way. I replied that doing things efficiently and quickly was very seamanlike and that Nelson would have used them if they were available in his time.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
A constrictor knot is just as effective, and avoids increasing the load of plastic waste. I usually have some short lengths of suitable cord around, and of course the cord is reuseable.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
I have re useable cable ties, Lidl finest.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Sounds good - I'm not in principle against using modern solutions!
Airscrew
Well-Known Member
Without a doubt. Back to back bowlines.
Standard practice in the med for that purpose.
In addition to being ideal and sufficient knot, there will be no stopping and thinking 'now how do I tie that fancy knot'.
Plus all your competent crew can do it while you're at the wheel, where you should be.
Keep it simple....
Extra hitch if you are feeling ultra cautious.
Next morning, bowline(s) without load are so easy to undo.
Just break the back.
Standard practice in the med for that purpose.
In addition to being ideal and sufficient knot, there will be no stopping and thinking 'now how do I tie that fancy knot'.
Plus all your competent crew can do it while you're at the wheel, where you should be.
Keep it simple....
Extra hitch if you are feeling ultra cautious.
Next morning, bowline(s) without load are so easy to undo.
Just break the back.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
I have used double bowline in this situation (mostly Scilly Isles and Plymouth sound beaches) but all my significant bowlines tuck through the spare end or halfhitch it to prevent it undoing by slacking. For long term I would use double fisherman.
As a climber we now mostly join ropes with single overhand or square knot. Wont work if ropes of very difference size, and can be hard to undo, doesnt look pretty, but hanging 200ft where slipping means certain death not merely a wandering boat, thats what we stake our life on. Can be done with stopper knot or a repeated overhand but we often dont as can prevent us pulling rope through securing point to retrieve it from below
As a climber we now mostly join ropes with single overhand or square knot. Wont work if ropes of very difference size, and can be hard to undo, doesnt look pretty, but hanging 200ft where slipping means certain death not merely a wandering boat, thats what we stake our life on. Can be done with stopper knot or a repeated overhand but we often dont as can prevent us pulling rope through securing point to retrieve it from below
Homer Simpson's Lovechild
Well-Known Member
Good grief - four pages on how to join two bits of string .
If you can't tye knots - tye lots !
If you can't tye knots - tye lots !
JimC
Well-Known Member
It is unmatched for coping with the snatching and slackening conditions envisaged by the OP. An airship in a gale snatches pretty hard at it's moorings!
It needs no seizings and is easy to tie. Make a 6 in the end of one rope with the tail towards you and make a 9 in the end of the other rope with the tail away from you. Put the 6 over the 9, push the tails through both loops and tighten - simples. It will even hold when you can see daylight through it.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Another vote for the zeppelin bend. Works with odd sized line too, just about a perfect lead.
penberth3
Well-Known Member
Another vote for the zeppelin bend. Works with odd sized line too, just about a perfect lead.
This is the problem when so many names get thrown around - I think that shows a Riggers Bend, not a Zeppelin knot. A Zeppelin knot starts with the two working ends facing the same way.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
From my wolf cub days I learnt to use a sheet bend when ropes were of unequal thicknesses. Today I would probably use two bowlines.
requiem
Well-Known Member
As another sailor with a climbing background, I can't help a slight cringe when I see knots like a plain bowline touted as secure. While many climbers prefer a bowline variant over a figure eight for ease of untying, those variants incorporate some form of backup (e.g. a fully-retraced bowline or tying a backup knot to secure the tail.) Accidents and fatalities have been attributed to the use of a non-backed-up bowline.
For the original question in this thread, a few knots come to mind. A double-fisherman's may provide sufficient strength, but I would pass on it if you want to be able to untie it. Next up is the recently-mentioned flat overhand. This is also secure so long as you leave sufficiently long tails (say, half a meter?). This is a critical requirement as during tightening the knot may roll a few times until "fully" tight, at which point it breaks at the knot. (A flat-eight must not be used, as it rolls far more easily. Similar to the bowline, a lesson written in blood.) The zeppelin bend looks interesting, but the supposed origin may be mythical. That makes me hesitate, as does the potential for mis-tying, particularly if a variation has worse characteristics (e.g. jams).
An alternative that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Flemish bend; it loosely calls to mind the Carrick bend but is a re-threaded figure eight. It should be easier to undo than a flat overhand, but can still get tight. And, as many suggested, bowlines with the tails secured would do the trick as well as being easily undone. (I am curious as to whether anyone has done pull testing to compare this method against others, as I haven't found much yet.)
For the original question in this thread, a few knots come to mind. A double-fisherman's may provide sufficient strength, but I would pass on it if you want to be able to untie it. Next up is the recently-mentioned flat overhand. This is also secure so long as you leave sufficiently long tails (say, half a meter?). This is a critical requirement as during tightening the knot may roll a few times until "fully" tight, at which point it breaks at the knot. (A flat-eight must not be used, as it rolls far more easily. Similar to the bowline, a lesson written in blood.) The zeppelin bend looks interesting, but the supposed origin may be mythical. That makes me hesitate, as does the potential for mis-tying, particularly if a variation has worse characteristics (e.g. jams).
An alternative that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Flemish bend; it loosely calls to mind the Carrick bend but is a re-threaded figure eight. It should be easier to undo than a flat overhand, but can still get tight. And, as many suggested, bowlines with the tails secured would do the trick as well as being easily undone. (I am curious as to whether anyone has done pull testing to compare this method against others, as I haven't found much yet.)
guernseyman
Well-Known Member
Two bowlines is just crazy, unless you do a lot of extra work to increase the security..
The rational choice is between Zeppelin bend, the most secure option of all, or Hunter's bend, slightly less secure but slightly easier to tie.
I always go for Hunter's bend because I know I can tie it quickly even in an emergency.
By the way, both those bends have simpler ways to be tied than the standard textbook method. I think the Zeppelin bend illustrated earlier is the the simple one.
Both those bends work perfectly with ropes of different diameters, and with straps.
What's not to like?
The rational choice is between Zeppelin bend, the most secure option of all, or Hunter's bend, slightly less secure but slightly easier to tie.
I always go for Hunter's bend because I know I can tie it quickly even in an emergency.
By the way, both those bends have simpler ways to be tied than the standard textbook method. I think the Zeppelin bend illustrated earlier is the the simple one.
Both those bends work perfectly with ropes of different diameters, and with straps.
What's not to like?
