Keel presses in the hull of my BAVARIA 32

[Ralph_T]

Hi There,

It concerns the Bavaria 32, new ship, assumption March 2002. In autumn 2002 the ship was take out of water by a crane to set on a bearing block. By lifting the block, the ship was moved about 30 meters to the winter ground. Suddenly I heard bad noises and I saw that the backing stilts were buckled into the hull. On the left side it came even to the laminate break, although the
ship stood firmly on the keel. With the following repeated craning the harbour master stated that the keel presses itself around 2-3 cm into the hull, if the ship is placed on these.

The consultant and ship builder Ralf Weise examined the ship and confirmed this. In addition he asserted that the ship has not the seaworthiness it should have according to the CE category A.

The dealer, Eurosailing from Bonn/Germany and Workum/Netherlands rejects the facts of the expertise. They said the reason for that is a craning fault.
Also Bavaria tried to pull itself from the responsibility and submits a document, which is to occupy the building in accordance with defaults of the Lloyds Register Quality Assurance. Although in the document it is to be read clearly that no control in current production takes place.

In order not to miss periods, now with the help of a lawyer, who is even an active sailor, we started judicial proceedings an official expertise ordered by the court.

All I wantet to do is to sail – and now...

Since a few weeks the ship is back in water again – but ist only inside germany, not at the coast. There is less wind and no waves.

I think that all should be discussed in Englang too. In Germany there is a big discussion in two german forums.

If you‘re interested see the links to there (sorry, only in german).
http://www.dkverlag.de/yacht/apboard/thread.php3?idx=10008&BoardID=1
http://www.boote-forum.de/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3744



Immer eine handbreit Wasser unterm Kiel
(allways one hand wide water under your keel)


Ralf, Cologne, Germany


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[Roberto]

**I think that all should be discussed in Englang too. In Germany there is a big discussion in two german forums.**


If you do a search in past forum topics I am sure you will find *many* big discussions about bavarias (following posters, best search keywords might also be Benjanbav, tupperware, etc)

seriously, sorry to hear about your boat

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[qsiv]

What an unpleasant experience for you - I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion.

I suspect that there will be many here who are not altogether surprised, but are nonetheless dismayed. It all smacks of the inadequacies an enquiry found with the products of a certain French builder a few years ago...

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[oldsalt]

There has been lots of controversy here about the lack of quality and seaworthiness of the Bavarias. I hope your case gets solved very quickly.

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[30boat]

It's not just Bavarias I'm afraid.My Westerly Fulmar is very strongly built indeed but the first time I had her hauled out the bottom flexed inwards so badly that one of the athwartships floors broke in two.I then strenghtened the whole area and it doesn't move anymore.I don't think there is a direct connection between seaworthiness and the ability to take the weight on he keel although things shouldn't break.
Bavarias are no reference in this department but it is the first time I have heard of a similar problem with them.A friend of mine owns a 92 Bav 30 and the bottom is pretty well reinforced.


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[oldsaltoz]

G'day Ralph, and welcome to the forum, I see this is your very first post, you will find the majority of the crew here are pretty good, but be prepared to cop a bit of nonsense from time to time.

It sounds very much like a quality control problem; the area below the water line on most if not all sailing vessels is thicker than the rest, particularly in the keel area and more so at the back of the keel.

During the original lay-up procedure it is not practical to apply all layers of glass required due to heat build up, so a second and in some areas a third layer is applied later.

It sounds very much like you have missed out on a layer or two, with poor quality control this would not be difficult as one layer looks the same a several, so if it gets missed, you only find out after you apply a load; or perhaps, even some crossmembers/stringers have been left out.

Some failures however are due to poor design or abuse. I have repaired main beams in Catamarans and replaced broken bearers and stringers in a Holland 30, both due to abuse or perhaps I should say a lack of knowledge to be kinder.

Please keep us all posted on your progress and outcome, and good luck.





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[paulplatts]

It is always necessary to be careful when laying up a boat. I would think it a very bad situation if the full weight of the boat rested on the keel or if the boat was lowered down rather too quickly. A lot of the weight should have been supported on it's cradle - if you look at some cradles the full weight is supported via contact between the hull & the cradle - the keel is just suspended. My boat yard always ensures that most weight is supported at the hull rather than the keel(s).

Also if you run aground this can cause damage at the keel to hull attachment - this is covered in June's PBO and would seem to be a common cause of damage in this area.

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[oldsalt]

I disagree. The keel should take the full weight of the boat, and the pads merely stop the boat from falling over.

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[jimi]

One would think so. If you were to dry out with beaching legs or alongside then the keel would take the full weight then.

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[bedouin]

With the possible exception of the engine - most people recommend additional direct support under there

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[nicho]

Every Bavaria that comes into the UK does so on the back of a low loader, imported from their German manufacturing plant. These boats are mounted on the trucks with the keel taking the full weight of the boat, which also has to absorb the shock loading of road irregularities etc - this they all do with no problems. Various Bavarias in our Marina are wintered ashore, with the full weight of the boat taken on the keel, again with no problems or hull distortion - these hulls have layers of kevlar in the forward sections, which adds yet further to their strength.

Talking last week to a Sunsail Skipper/Instructor whilst rafted to their Jeanneau in Yarmouth (he had an hour to kill whilst his students were taking lunch ashore before departing), he, quite unsolicited, sang the praises of the Bavarias, on which he instructs in Australia, "tough as old boots" was his comment, "much more so than THESE things (Jeanneaus). "They take anything we throw at them and come back for more"......totally unsolicited as I say.

Then their was the case a couple of years ago of a well known French manufacturer whose brand new model had major problems with keels parting from the hull!! Funny, they got away with that - it's only Bavaria that gets the stick!! Too successful perhaps??

Incidentally, within a very short period of time, Bavaria will be the biggest Manufacturer of boats in the World, not surprising with their value for money and positive magazine tests (Sailing Today's recent Bav 38 test as an example)

None of this is going to help poor RalphT with his problems - it is a terrible thing that has happened, but it does surprise me that if it IS a manufacturing or quality control fault , a company the size of Bavaria has not put it's hand up and fixed it. If you have read the recent articles about Bavaria's superb, modern manufacturing plant, you will see the efforts that go into maintaining tight quality control. Every boat has the correct amount of grp material weighed for that particular model - they keep laminating until it has all gone, thus it would be very difficult to lay up the hull to an incorrect thickness. Bavaria seem to be blaming a cranage fault - could it be it was inadvertantly dropped from some height??

To say in your previous post, Old Salt, that there has been a lot of "controversy" on this forum as to the seaworthiness of Bavarias is complete rubbish. There are indeed some that seem to have an axe to grind, and talk nonsense about these excellent boats - however, talk to any Bavaria owner (other than perhaps the unfortunate RalphT), and you will get nothing but glowing praise for a superb product.

I remain a totally satisfied, and proud Bavaria 36 owner.

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[richardandtracy]

Maybe I'm unduly pessimistic (or just a really bad seaman!), but I reckon that any yacht will always, at some point in its life, be hammered into the seabed by waves using its keel as a pile driver. The last thing the crew needs at that point is for the keel to break/ be stoved in - they'll already be having a bad enough time.

I suppose, if there is a weakness in the vessel, I'd rather find out at the boat yard than when in shallow water & big waves.

Having said that, it's absolutely unforgivable that it should happen at all.

Ralph - have you considered having an ultrasonic laminate thickness check carried out? That should then show if any is missing for the start, and point the blame straight at the manufacturer.

Regards

Richard.


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[oldsalt]

From Merriam Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: con·tro·ver·sy
Pronunciation: 'kän-tr&-"v&r-sE, British also k&n-'trä-v&r-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English controversie, from Latin controversia, from controversus disputable, literally, turned against, from contro- (akin to contra-) + versus, past participle of vertere to turn -- more at WORTH
Date: 14th century
1 : a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views : DISPUTE
2 : QUARREL, STRIFE

I think it has been fair to say that there has been the expression of opposing views regarding the Bavarias. You may not agree with all of them, but they have been posted by several people.

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[tome]

I wondered how long it would be before this thread disintegrated into Bav bashing, but had little doubt that oldsalt would enter the fray...!

Good advice about the ultrasonic laminate thickness test, this would show whether it was a manufacturing problem.

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[nicho]

Nice one Old Salt , you've got me there!! My argument is, that the anti-Bavaria posters are predominantly those who never seem to talk to actual Bavaria owners (and ALL those that I have met are VERY happy with their boats) and believe that because it's a modern building technique, the boats cannot be sturdy. It is wrong to imply Bavarias are weak structurally (at least no more so than any modern production Jeanneau/Feeling/Beneteau etc). They are so competitively priced due to the massive buying power of Bavaria, and the tremendously effecient production line in operation, not because they are built to any kind of low standard - if so, with the 2000+ boats leaving the factory each year (soon to be 3000), they would have been rumbled long ago - many Bavaria owners are very experienced sailors, many having come from Moodys/Westerlys etc, so they have experienced good product with which to compare them with. Bavaria certainly do not scrimp on hardware, all of which is top quality stuff from Harken, Selden and the like, and their quality control is excellent because of their computer controlled build activities.

Heaven knows what has happened to RalphT's boat, but it is patently not true to say that Bavaria's cannot stand on their keels - obviously we are getting one side of a very sorry saga, and there simply has to be more to it than we have heard. Whatever, it is always distressing to hear of such disputes.

As a very happy Bav owner, I'll always stick up for them, though I know of many others who read the forum who refuse to rise to the bait - I can't help it!! By the way, were you around to obtain the first edition of the Merrium Webster dictionary? (sorry, couldn't resist that!!)

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[Sybarite]

The fault would appear to lie either with Bavaria or with the crane operator. Only an independent marine surveyor would be competent to decide. This should be a fairly modest investment compared to what you might hope to recover as a result.

John

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[nicho]

Doesn't take long does it Tom - and like an idiot, I rise to it every time.....!! I'm a proud Bav 36 owner, and a huge fan, but I'll try harder to ignore all the rubbish posted in future!!

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[oldsalt]

I'm not quite that old!

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[nicho]

Sad part is that I am!!!

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[graham]

I cannot agree with that . Cruising boats should be able to dry out on there keel without fear of it ending up in the saloon.

Does this imply that modern boats are unsuitable for drying out in a half tide mud mooring for example.

The half tide harbours in the Bristol Channel are full of boats of all keel types happily taking the ground in either mud or sand every tide.

I could not part with money for a boat suitable only for marina berthing or full tide moorings .It will be interesting to see how they stand up to a few decades of use in the real world.

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