Keel presses in the hull of my BAVARIA 32

[Heckler]

if you read the original post and get around the stilted english you will see that the harbour master is saying that if the boat is rested on the keel it pushes into the hull, i suspect that what happened was that the boat was put in a cradle with very small bearing pads on the accro props and was not allowed to put the whole weight on the keel, the boat was then lifted in the cradle to move it around.
the accro props would then have been the weight bearers and all the boats weight would have been taken by them, and i could then understand why they punctured the hull.
ralph, the fin keel is designed to take the weight of the boat and some extra, if the "harbour master" is saying that it would penetate the hull by 2 - 3 cms if the weight is taken on it he is full of shit, and it is him you should be looking to to pay for repairs, imho
stu

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[HaraldS]

That's the way I read it too, but it seems that the hull flexing 2-3cm when all weight is put on the keel, would not necessarily mean that the keel cannot carry the weight of the boat without damaging it. Now I wouldn't like such a 'flexible' hull, but it's perceivable that this is considered ok and expected. In that case one would have to lower the boat onto the keel, taking almost the full weight onto it, before adjusting the accro props and finally releasing the crane.

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[gerardversluis]

A friend of mine has worked 3 years by the Bavaria importer in the Netherlands as a repair technician. Let me put it in a nice way. The hulls build since about 1990 are build very very cost effective.




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[Ralph_T]

Hi all,

thanks a lot for your postings regarding the problems with my Bavaria 32.

Its important for me to make some things clear:

- The harbour master does his job since 25 years. Every year he cranes about
1.000 ships an he knows very well how to handle a boat.

- He craned the Bavaria 32 very slowely and smooth on the bearing block. At that
time all four stilts were completly down, so the keel was standing on the blocks
base. After that the stilts were elevated.

- The bearing pads (and also the bearing block) do have a normal standard size.
The same block size was used while the ship was at the dealer in netherlands.
But there the pads were very smaller - about one third of mines.

- The consultant and ship builder Ralf Weise examined the ship and confirmed
this. In addition he asserted that the ship has not the seaworthiness it should
have according to the CE category A. He also said, its not ok that the keel
presses into the hull 2 to 3 cm. Bavaria doesn't accept his reasoning.

- The official expertise ordered by the court will affirm the first expertise and it
will show the causation.

- I do not think that bavaria boats are build in less quality. But my boat has a big
problem. I can't understand why they don't give me help. Its a new ship with
warranty. But the only thing they said is: Sorry, but its not our problem
although the expertise says there are hull stability weaknesses.




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[oldsaltoz]

G'day All,

Warning - Not all yachts are designed to stand on their keel; and some will suffer major major damage if they are stood on their keel.

If you are not sure, ask around or post here, I'm sure the many readers will be able to advise you, assuming the builder is not available.

And for what it's worth I rather like the Bav's, lots of them here in Oz.

PS. Please do not confuse 'Old Salt' with 'Old Salt Oz' we are more than half a world apart, geographically anyway.



<hr width=100% size=1>Andavagoodweekend, Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day All,

Warning - Not all yachts are designed to stand on their keel; and some will suffer major major damage if they are stood on their keel.

If you are not sure, ask around or post here, I'm sure the many readers will be able to advise you, assuming the builder is not available.

And for what it's worth I rather like the Bav's, lots of them here in Oz.

PS. Please do not confuse 'Old Salt' with 'Old Salt Oz' we are more than half a world apart, geographically anyway.

Old Salt Oz....



<hr width=100% size=1>Andavagoodweekend, Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[nicho]

Ralph, I just don't get it - the Bavaria hulls have a massive internal grid structure that is bonded to the bottom of the hull in the early stages of production. Unless for some reason, on your boat this bonding has not taken place (which seems unlikely, being that it is quite a big part of the build process), or has for some external reason broken away, I cannot see how this flexing can take place.

It's a real mystery to me, and I am very sorry for you. Have Bavaria actually inspected the boat themselves?? If so, and they are refusing action, it has to have been caused by some other external reason.

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[Chris_Robb]

GK29\'s Drying out

Back in the eighties the Westerly GK 29 had this problem. It had for those days a relatively flat bottom, and the problem related to a group of GK29s that were in Jersey. These boats were kept in cradles on half tide moorings, and grounded 2 times a day. At the end of 1 season - the bottoms had fatigued to such an extent that the hull was moving up some 2 inches.

These boats were expensivey relaid up and were probably stronger than before.

Should a cruising boat be able to stand on its keel? Yes - that is the least of the worry - should it be able to take a heavy grounding? - Yes

GRP is a material which does not like flexing. Every time it flexes a few more strands of glass break. Over a period of time........ My own belief is that a GRP structure should be designed so that it cannot flex.

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[Chris_Robb]

Delivery Cradles

Nicho - I noticed that the cradles that the Legends arrive on in Sparks yard have such huge support under the hull that I was wondering whether they really did have a problem with taking weight on the keel. I can't remember what the Bav cradles looked like.

I hope Ral[h manages to sort the problem out

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[Chris_Robb]

Was yours an early Fulmar? The first 20 or so had real problems. with one loosing its keel in front of the Royal Dublin Yatch club. As a cost accountant at Westerlies we had queried the Layup as it was so light! Needeless to say the later ones were built a bit better - This was early days for Ed Dubois - his first Westerly design.

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[oldsalt]

Much as I love Bavaria baiting (and I have now sailed several hundred miles on their boats), my critisisms mainly relate to the poor interior finish, together with possible future problems of maintanance and heavy weather broaching (However, I probably sail in winds that most people would choose not to) .

They are lovely to sail in lower wind speeds and are good value for money new. However their hulls, whilst lightweight- but not high tech- are well designed and I would expect them to sit happily on their keels. Either you have a "friday afternoon" boat (in which Bavaria should fix) or it has been dropped by a crane at some point in its life.

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[30boat]

Mine is the very first one.The layup however is incredibly thick everywhere and especially around the keel area.I've laminated new floors and stringers and now it only moves less than 2 milimeters when ashore.I measured it.

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[nicho]

Old Salt, you are indeed a rascal!! I rise to your bait every time - never again!! I really don't understand RalphT's problems, sounds like it has been damaged at sometime, or I'm sure Bavaria would be taking a much closer interest. We are only getting a part of the whole picture I fear. I do feel for him though. Incidentally, the newer designed boats (36 and 38 etc) are supposed to be much less prone to broaching in heavy weather, though I confess that I havn't really put mine to the test yet!! I was on the PBO test of the 36 though with David Harding (PBO's tester) with winds up to 32kts, and she happily surfed down some pretty steep waves at 10/11 knots with the wind up her 'derriere', with no signs of broaching at all.

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[celandine]

I would change boatyards immediately. It is extremely dangerous to allow any of the boat's weight to bear on the hull supports: the hull is not designed for point-loading of this kind If they do actually attempt to do this, just think how difficult it would be - not to say impossible - to devide the loading up evenly between the supports. One misscalculation would cause serious damage. The arms of a cradle are for lateral support only. The keel must be designed to take this load - and more.

Mick

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[Heckler]

Warning - Not all yachts are designed to stand on their keel; and some will suffer major major damage if they are stood on their keel.

really?

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[Robin]

Are you saying that if you buy a Bavaria you should expect to laminate in extra floors and stringers yourself? I know when I looked at them at boatshows everything but everything came as an extra but it is taking things a bit too far if you have to finish off the structural work as well.

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[Robin]

Are you saying that if you buy a Bavaria you should expect to laminate in extra floors and stringers yourself? I know when I looked at them at boatshows everything but everything came as an extra but it is taking things a bit too far if you have to finish off the structural work as well.

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[LeonF]

My Sigma 33 sits on a purpose built cradle supported by four pads, but resting on its keel. When anti-fouling I happily remove a pad and support on three to paint under the pads. However I found that one of the floorboards was rocking slightly from a raised floor beam, and I have a new botton with an extra layer of reinforcing laminate. All hulls will flex a little-informed opinion says that final prop shaft aliignment should only be attempted on the water to allow for this-- theproblem resolved itself when the boat returned to the water. Don't mean to enter the Bavaria debate but: one of my crew went to sail a Bav 36 in the solent and though praising its comfort said that the sailing abilities couldn't compare with my Sig. Also do any of you remember the feature in the sailing press a while ago comparing a Bav with a Westerly--the price difference was some £40,000 and the ultimate quality reflected this. However it is Bavaria who are still around. Quality costs. Whether one needs that quality if one never pushes it to the limit is another question. Look at all the Hallberg Rasseys which seem to spend their time on the Dutch inland seas.

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[extravert]

I agree with this, I don't know of a recent design or construction method where the keel support is not strong enough to support the weight of the boat. I would expect the keel support area to be the strongest region of hull construction, for obvious reasons.

I no longer own a keel boat, but my previous one had a fin keel which was bolted to a steel frame laminated into solid moulding, spreading the keel load over a wide area of the hull. This provided spread-load strength for both sailing and supporting the boat ashore.

The alternative of suspending the boat from the cradle pads would have had the whole load on small areas of the hull where foam cored layup was present. This would have lead to inevitable crushing of the core and delamination.

The explicit instructions from the manufacturer (X-Yachts) were that the boat's weight should be supported on the keel when ashore, with the cradle used for side support only. I forwarded this information to my marina when they lifted the boat, and their reply was that was how they supported all keel boats in their cradles anyway.

If the original poster's hull was not damaged by rough handling or a grounding, but simply by resting on its keel, then it sounds like a serious hull defect. It is an unfortunate situation to be in, but better that it happened ashore than the keel falling off at sea.

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[vyv_cox]

There used to be two Sigma 33s in Ramsey Harbour that dried every tide on Yacht Legs.

As you say, all hulls flex a little. Just look at the keel/hull joint when the hoist slings begin to take the weight. In my experience of observing many launches of many types of boat, a gap almost always opens up at this location.

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