It's good for RNLI to rescue numpties

[alant]

Just look at this - a day in the life of ...

This is all pretty much what any competent mariner should be able to rectify themselves. I have lost count of the number of RAC / AA vans I see simply changing a wheel - perhaps Mr. Gove could add this to his list of life skills.

There's many a 'competant mariner' who would miss some of those faults, even after a diesel engine course.

Ref the RAC/AA, they are called out often to change wheels, because its a 'why not' situation, when you've paid for membership. However, I agree that some skills are required - I had an example of a very intelligent relative aged about 40, who had no idea how to charge the dead battery we had taken off his boat. Still doesn't, cos the charger is in my garage & I did it.

 

[alahol2]

Sadly though, a vast majority of people don't think in this way, there is a growing complacency on emergency services reliance.

I think that's a 'vast' overstatement. How many on this board are you talking about? How many in your own sailing club? I can think of a few local sailors who would abuse the system but 'the vast majority'? No.

 

[FishyInverness]

alahol, I did actually think exactly what you just said on writing my post! - I would respond by saying I think very few people on this board would be encompassed by my statement.

I don't think that this forum represents the "vast majority" of water users by a longshot though.

Forum users are usually a very concentrated dedicated enthusiast to whatever that forum is about. They're usually people who are really interested in the subject, passionate and can be very professional about their hobby/sport/profession/whatever the forum is about, with one or two exceptions perhaps.... They tend not to be careless about any part of that subject.

Having been at the sharp end of emergency services control, for 2 of the 4 "official" emergency services, I would still stand by my comment that there is a growing complacency.

 

[fireball]

There's many a 'competant mariner' who would miss some of those faults, even after a diesel engine course.

As I've said before - it's not always about fixing the problem - it's about negating it's impact.

Ref the RAC/AA, they are called out often to change wheels, because its a 'why not' situation, when you've paid for membership.

Sometimes it's too dangerous to change the wheel - motorways are dodgy enough without having to change an offside wheel - assistance is recommended - but if it was clear then I might just change it myself rather than wait ...

However, I agree that some skills are required - I had an example of a very intelligent relative aged about 40, who had no idea how to charge the dead battery we had taken off his boat. Still doesn't, cos the charger is in my garage & I did it.

That smacks of the "don't need to know because someone else will do that for me" - which would be a bit worrying out at sea - eg, the engine battery had failed and thus you couldn't start the engine - a simple disconnect of the engine battery and connect up a leisure battery could resolve that on a temporary basis - it isn't rocket science and in most cases is easy enough to achieve.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

There's many a 'competant mariner' who would miss some of those faults, even after a diesel engine course.

Ref the RAC/AA, they are called out often to change wheels, because its a 'why not' situation, when you've paid for membership. However, I agree that some skills are required - I had an example of a very intelligent relative aged about 40, who had no idea how to charge the dead battery we had taken off his boat. Still doesn't, cos the charger is in my garage & I did it.

I don't change wheels any more because a) if I'm paying for the services of a road-side assistance company, then I don't see why I should take risks with my back which has given enough problems in the past b) because the jack supplied with most cars is not really adequate c) I don't have enough use for a jack to justify buying a good one. (PS, my current car doesn't even have a spare wheel, but has an aerosol tire repair kit)

However, I certainly COULD change a wheel, or attend to a large number of other car emergencies IF I HAD TO. I once, when I were a lad, dismantled the clutch of my Toyota Corolla and replaced the friction plate, all on my own, with only a (decent) jack to lift and support the engine. I wouldn't attempt it these days; too scared of the risks I happily took when I was in my 20s, and too likely to seriously injure myself.

So, we shouldn't confuse people calling out a 3rd part agency with being unable to cope; it ain't necessarily or even usually so.

The RNLI is, however, a different kettle of fish. They DON'T exist to provide a breakdown service; they exist to rescue people who are for ANY reason in danger. In my view, it is fine to use them if you BELIEVE you are in danger - and that danger may arise from lack of knowledge, lack of strength, lack of skill or whatever - but not otherwise. And the same external circumstances may justify a call-out for one person but not another. I mentioned not calling the CG in an engine failure situation in an earlier post - I knew that I could cope with the situation, and indeed, did so. But a less experienced sailor might have made a different decision - and they wouldn't have been wrong.

We really shouldn't judge other people's circumstances. We don't know people's level of skill, we don't know that they aren't as sick as dogs, or exhausted, or terrified, or whether they have vulnerable people on board or whatever. We should simply be glad that the RNLI DOES offer a rescue service for anyone who perceives the need - of course, with the CG acting as a gate-keeper for them, removing the trivial from the equation.

 

[viago]

the cost of rescues is currently calculated by dividing total costs by total rescues to cover ALL overheads. that makes each rescue bloody expensive & probably beyond the means of over 80% of the people rescued.

by the same token then, the more call outs the cheaper each call becomes, thereby making the rnli more efficient.
calling the rnli because you ran out of fuel is appropriate in that early intervention is the most effective intervention. yes, you should check the fuel level before setting off, and yes, you should be able to sail without the need for an engine but we are not all perfect and sometimes we forget things or feel unnecessarily vulnerable.

 

[fireball]

calling the rnli because you ran out of fuel is appropriate in that early intervention is the most effective intervention.

In all scenarios? Really?
Would you call them out because you've got 6 people and 6 lifejackets onboard - then find out that one of the lifejackets is faulty?


If you want the most effective intervention then don't bother putting to sea - things go wrong at sea and you have to deal with them - if you won't (deal with them) then you are (IMO) a danger to yourself and others.

(Note - the WON'T ... it is not CAN'T)

 

[te2070]

Sods law dictates that when one thing goes wrong others are sure to follow (or is that murphys law).

As a RNLI crew member I would much rather attend a seemingly trivial problem early then turn up for a much more serious one when there has been time for things to go from bad to worse!

 

[Fantasie 19]

There's many a 'competant mariner' who would miss some of those faults, even after a diesel engine course.

Ref the RAC/AA, they are called out often to change wheels, because its a 'why not' situation, when you've paid for membership. However, I agree that some skills are required - I had an example of a very intelligent relative aged about 40, who had no idea how to charge the dead battery we had taken off his boat. Still doesn't, cos the charger is in my garage & I did it.

Indeed.... where does "marine engineer" and "electrician" become "competent mariner".... it does become a bit tiring after a while this constant implication that those of us who are not mechanically gifted are at 'fault'... not all of us have been taking apart internal combustion engines since we were toddlers, and I didn't take up sailing because I wanted to learn how to - I've learnt the engine/electrics basics but I'm no expert... happily for me the RNLI may take up the slack one day - hopefully not though...

 

[fireball]

Indeed.... where does "marine engineer" and "electrician" become "competent mariner".... it does become a bit tiring after a while this constant implication that those of us who are not mechanically gifted are at 'fault'... not all of us have been taking apart internal combustion engines since we were toddlers, and I didn't take up sailing because I wanted to learn how to - I've learnt the engine/electrics basics but I'm no expert... happily for me the RNLI may take up the slack one day - hopefully not though...

I hope you're suggesting my posts infer that those who can't rebuild an engine at sea are incompetent mariners .... because that's not what I've said at all.

 

[Fantasie 19]

I hope you're suggesting my posts infer that those who can't rebuild an engine at sea are incompetent mariners .... because that's not what I've said at all.

Blimey fireball - not at all.... can I buy you a virtual beer to prove it?

 

[fireball]

Blimey fireball - not at all....

Phew - that's ok then - I thought I may have been typing in white pixels ...

can I buy you a virtual beer to prove it?

Bugger that m8 - we'll just have to meet up for a proper one in the harbour somewhen ... normally a can/bottle or 12 onboard - perhaps we can call the RNLI out when the beers run out?!

 

[Fantasie 19]

Phew - that's ok then - I thought I may have been typing in white pixels ...

Bugger that m8 - we'll just have to meet up for a proper one in the harbour somewhen ... normally a can/bottle or 12 onboard - perhaps we can call the RNLI out when the beers run out?!

PAN PAN lost the bottle opener....

 

[Searush]

PAN PAN lost the bottle opener....

Shouldn't that be "All Ships. All Ships" followed by "We're having a party"

Bound to get someone with a bottle opener & a corkscrew then.

 

[alahol2]

CG: "PAN PAN Fantasie, are you willing to accept a commercial screw?"

 

[viago]

In all scenarios? Really?
Would you call them out because you've got 6 people and 6 lifejackets onboard - then find out that one of the lifejackets is faulty?


If you want the most effective intervention then don't bother putting to sea - things go wrong at sea and you have to deal with them - if you won't (deal with them) then you are (IMO) a danger to yourself and others.

(Note - the WON'T ... it is not CAN'T)

there may be scenarios in which it would not be inappropriate, for example, if you were moored at a safe place. but by and large yes, imho, it is appropriate to call the emergency services for a dry fuel tank.
in every case of "critical incident analysis" that i have read, the fatalities have been as a result of multiple failings, each one seemingly unimportant, such as, for example, not having the correctly functioning safety equipment . so, in answer to your life-jacket scenario then yes, absolutely, it is appropriate to call the rnli. if you sank and a crew member drowned you would really face the music for taking no action when knowing that a life-jacket was u s
if you are dealing with a mechanical failure when you should be sailing or navigating then it is you rather than me who is the greater "danger to yourself and others".
from te2070 "Sods law dictates that when one thing goes wrong others are sure to follow (or is that murphys law).

As a RNLI crew member I would much rather attend a seemingly trivial problem early then turn up for a much more serious one when there has been time for things to go from bad to worse!"
i note the "cant and wont" point but what you fail to grasp is that calling the rnli most certainly is dealing with the problem.
take note and never be too proud to ask for help- there are times when "managing" is inappropriate.

 

[fireball]

there may be scenarios in which it would not be inappropriate, for example, if you were moored at a safe place. but by and large yes, imho, it is appropriate to call the emergency services for a dry fuel tank.
in every case of "critical incident analysis" that i have read, the fatalities have been as a result of multiple failings, each one seemingly unimportant, such as, for example, not having the correctly functioning safety equipment . so, in answer to your life-jacket scenario then yes, absolutely, it is appropriate to call the rnli. if you sank and a crew member drowned you would really face the music for taking no action when knowing that a life-jacket was u s
if you are dealing with a mechanical failure when you should be sailing or navigating then it is you rather than me who is the greater "danger to yourself and others".
from te2070 "Sods law dictates that when one thing goes wrong others are sure to follow (or is that murphys law).

We'll have to agree to disagree then ...
There are only a few scenarios I can think of where I believe it would be appropriate to call out the rescue services for a dry fuel tank - and those are generally where not doing so would put vessels & crew in danger - ie when there is no other form of propulsion (and I don't mean strapping the tender alongside!)

As a RNLI crew member I would much rather attend a seemingly trivial problem early then turn up for a much more serious one when there has been time for things to go from bad to worse!"
i note the "cant and wont" point but what you fail to grasp is that calling the rnli most certainly is dealing with the problem.

There again I disagree - calling for help is not dealing with the problem - it is getting you out of a muddle - not the same thing at all.

take note and never be too proud to ask for help- there are times when "managing" is inappropriate.

There are plenty of times when calling for help is entirely appropriate and we cannot dictate exactly what those should/shouldn't be.
If you had a list of things to try I would prefer the "call for help" to come further down the list than it seems to be the case - around here it seems to be the first thing that ppl do!

I know the RNLI are happy to launch and be stood down or even attend a trivial issue - but what would happen if we ALL called out for help at the slightest mishap? RNLI services would be stretched to the limit and there could be a real risk of someone loosing their life in amidst a melay of faux calls.
It's not a big problem at the moment - but it appears to be on the increase - far better that we sort it out and encourage all sailors to become better seamen.

 

[FishyInverness]

+1 to everything Fireball mentions above - Remember that it's a criminal offence to set out on a motorway without enough fuel to get off again, and that on the road most breakdown policies do not cover running out of fuel - Why should it be deemed "ok" to do the same on the water, simply because it has the potential to be a more hostile environment so you deserve rescuing by default?

I'd like to make it clear that i'm not knocking viago perosnally when I say this, because it's an emotive subject and it does have varied opinion, but when I say there is a growing complacency towards a reliance on ever-dwindling emergency resources, that post typifies that kind of thinking..eg.

"it is appropriate to call the emergency services for a dry fuel tank."

"So, in answer to your life-jacket scenario then yes, absolutely, it is appropriate to call the rnli. if you sank and a crew member drowned you would really face the music for taking no action when knowing that a life-jacket was u s" - Surely you make a risk assessment and if you don't feel comfortable, you return to port.

"take note and never be too proud to ask for help- there are times when "managing" is inappropriate. " - I agree, ask for help, but appropriate help - I give you a case in point, and a true story :

A lady called 999 for an ambulance because she had the flu, because of the way she answered the triage questions (english not being first language and because the service HAS to take all answers as gospel truth) she received a blues and twos high-speed response...for the flu. Asking for help in this case would have been to call her doctor's surgery, but she relied on the thinking that 999 means medical help.

Like fireball says, calling for emergency help is not dealing with the problem, it is simply getting you out of a muddle - the fact that it is a "free" service means that there are a growing number of people who think "I have a problem, I can't or wont pay for the help I need, I know, there's a free service and it's only three digits or a radio call away" - and that is where the "numpty" monicker applies, in my book...