Isle of Wight sealine crash with injuries.

[Elessar]

I see nothing entertaining about a serious accident that left people in hospital and which saw emergency services airlifting casualties.

You must live in a very different world to me.

We might all make assumptions as to the cause but until the skipper comes on here or the accident report gets published I would suggest keeping those assumptions to ourselves.

By all means consider best practice for night time journeys. My advice would be:


Zero alcohol
Consider whether you actually need to make the trip or whether it can wait until daylight
Make extra allowance for weather and tides
Have everyone wearing a life jacket and brief everyone on the boat, your plans and the additional risks at night
Sort out lighting so you are not “ blinded”
Ensure nav lights are on and working
Set chart plotter and instruments to night mode / dim them right down
Consider plotting a course even if you are familiar with the area
Use radar if fitted
Proceed with caution at slow speed
Consider using auto pilot to hold you on a steady course. This will stop you from inadvertently veering off course and reduce workload
Consider allocating navigation duties to someone else IF you have a suitably qualified person on board allowing you to concentrate on helming the boat.
Continue to manage guests / passengers on board who may not be aware of the potential dangers.
Keep referencing lights and marks with your chart plotter / radar and position. Predict what you should be seeing and compare that to what you are seeing with your eyes.

It’s not an extensive list but it gives you some things to consider.

Don’t use the pressure of guests on board to attempt your first night time trip. That should be done with the company of a qualified instructor / experienced skipper.

Henry

Not a bad list Henry except the “consider delaying”. Night boating is a great pleasure.

I’d say to give the helming to someone else before the navigation.

Also I disagree with you about referencing plotter often. I turn charts screens off and navigate properly. Better for night vision. Even if your plotter has a night mode. I seem to be in a minority (maybe of 1!) on this point.

I’d add don’t forget about the moon. I went to Chichester marina in the dark single handed a few months ago. It was a new moon and it caught me out - going through the moorings at the top of the harbour was a challenge as it was very dark indeed and I struggled a bit. On the “don’t go faster you can see” principle I was at about 1/4 knot!

The “don’t go faster than you can see” principle is the most important of the lot. We don’t have to speculate that was sadly not the case in Totland bay.

 

[oldgit]

It could quite possibly take a couple of years for any MAIB investigation to reach a conclusion and be published.
The MAIB only report on what happens and cannot get involved with any legal action.
Any prosecution proceedings do not usually actually commence until the report has been released.
The court cannot use the information in any MAIB report in evidence but must make their own investigations as to guilt or otherwise.
Have always believed that some experience in night passages under benign and relaxed circumstances is good thing.
This might make things less stressful when the SHTF and might "help" one to decide to simply not make that journey knowing whats involved.
"The Get-home-itis Syndrome:", exists in a fair proportion of serious accidents.

 

[henryf]

I see very little benefit to turning your chart plotter off. Please let’s not turn this into a willy waving competition or make people embarrassed for deciding not to venture out at night beyond their comfort zone.

When you say “navigating properly” I would have thought a chart plotter forms the basis of that. Charts are an alternative but I would argue they need illuminating which will upset your night vision more than a dim chart plotter and times have moved on. Modern chart plotters are both reliable and accurate.

As for handing over navigation or helming duties I can see an argument for both options. Ultimately as the person in charge I would opt to take the helm.

But definitely don’t turn your chart plotter off kids. Your insurance company will take a very dim view as will the MAIB.

 

[Never Grumble]

As for handing over navigation or helming duties I can see an argument for both options. Ultimately as the person in charge I would opt to take the helm.

Personally I put someone else on the helm and concentrate on the navigation, which means looking at the plotter and chart and outside, including using binoculars to read/check recognise light characteristics as you progress. You then have to adopt the mindset of ships bridge manager and you have to have a helm that will do as they are told.

 

[Elessar]

I see very little benefit to turning your chart plotter off. Please let’s not turn this into a willy waving competition or make people embarrassed for deciding not to venture out at night beyond their comfort zone.

When you say “navigating properly” I would have thought a chart plotter forms the basis of that. Charts are an alternative but I would argue they need illuminating which will upset your night vision more than a dim chart plotter and times have moved on. Modern chart plotters are both reliable and accurate.

As for handing over navigation or helming duties I can see an argument for both options. Ultimately as the person in charge I would opt to take the helm.

But definitely don’t turn your chart plotter off kids. Your insurance company will take a very dim view as will the MAIB.

I did say I was possibly a minority of one!

But your instinctive situational awareness is massively improved without a plotter IMO.

 

[Elessar]

Erroneous duplicate deleted.

 

[Offshore57]

I have only done a handful of night passages as skipper, and I always find it amazing how much you can actually see once you are used to it. First time was with no plotter fitted and carefully finding our way back to Port Solent, and realised that the red and green lights that I was looking at were not in fact channel markers, but traffic lights on the Portchester road.....that threw me for a minute.
Also on the way from Hamble river to Southsea Marina, back in 2020 the night of first Lockdown, and also with no plotter in a recently bought boat, entering the channel to the marina in the dark with wife on the foredeck with a torch trying to decide the colour of the channel marker poles (before they got painted last year).....challenging times, but we made it.

 

[ylop]

At that time of night you shoul be doing no more than 5 knots. At that speed you might hurt your boat but you wont hurt people. Has a boat like that even got head lights

Why do the colregs make a distinction between vessels capable of <7 knots and >7 knots if all vessels should just do 5 knots in the dark?

 

[Greg2]

Some interesting views on night passages. On the helm / navigation point my view is that if you have a competent helm aboard who knows how to take instructions then the Skipper should be responsible for navigation and situational awareness. If there isn’t another competent helm aboard then there isn’t a lot of choice.

I don’t subscribe to the ‘don’t do night passages‘ point of view but there is no question that passage planning and safety briefings take on a whole new level importance if you do put to sea in the dark.

 

[ylop]

I’d refuse if I were onboard. No one has any right to breathalyse a recreational boater.

Never? I thought a number of harbour authorities had that power? Personally I'd be happy to provide a breath sample as I won't have been drinking and helming - so it absolves me of the immediate finger pointing (and might even help with my insurance claim, by removing an escape clause from them).

I see nothing entertaining about a serious accident that left people in hospital and which saw emergency services airlifting casualties.
We might all make assumptions as to the cause but until the skipper comes on here or the accident report gets published I would suggest keeping those assumptions to ourselves.

I don't think anyone is finding the accident itself entertaining, but I can see some people enjoy discussing / speculating on the cause and potentially learn other risks in the process (e.g. if it was alcohol related, but discussion ends up covering night vision issues, or distraction dealing with crew those are learning points we can all benefit from, whereas the MAIB report will inevitably focus on the particular circumstance that went wrong on this occasion)

Consider allocating navigation duties to someone else IF you have a suitably qualified person on board allowing you to concentrate on helming the boat.

I'm in the consider allocating helming to someone else camp - too often in either day or night we become bogged down in helming and not skippering. FWIW if you have the resource I'd allocate someone else to nav too - so you become the conductor or the orchestra rather than the first violin.

But your instinctive situational awareness is massively improved without a plotter IMO.

Interestingly new boat came without any plotter in the cockpit. That forced a return to older school thinking ahead, planning, carefully studying the charts which I think has been good in daylight too. Just like in the car once the screen takes over navigating you become detached from knowing where you are.

 

[Supertramp]

Some good points made and I agree that situational awareness is key. I always look for buoys, hills, lighthouses even off to the side so there is always a point of reference. Autopilot really useful to let you focus on navigation. And practise is a good thing when planned properly. I recall a situation at night in Southampton water making for the next green buoy (with a proper passage plan) but accidentally spotting one further up the channel with a drying bank between us and it. Interestingly we were sailing at 8 knts and things were happening fast. Spotted a red buoy close at hand (expecting green!) and hove to while the navigator and helm regained their bearings. Slowing down is good advice. You need to be able to deal with a buoy missed, unlit or masked by traffic before the drama escalates.

I fitted a red cabin light on a flex stalk to illuminate the chart area or galley. But I find even the instrument and compass light too bright when offshore. Engine panel lights too. These posts will make me experiment further with bulbs and settings.

 

[doug748]

"At that time of night you shoul be doing no more than 5 knots....."




Absolutely, in that situation. I hope nobody on these forums think it is sensible to plane around sheltered inshore waters in a power boat at night. There have been enough incidents and deaths, with uneducated or drunk people in Ribs.

The difference with Shipping is that it does not travel at speed up the middle of shallow, sheltered waters where there are tenders, crab pots, canoeists, fishermen, unlit buoys. paddleboarders, nets, moorings and anchored boats.

.

 

[petem]

But definitely don’t turn your chart plotter off kids. Your insurance company will take a very dim view as will the MAIB.

That's a statement worthy of Porto!

 

[DavidJ]

Just a point about lighthouses
Many years ago pre satellite GPS we cruised a lot around Yugoslavia (that dates it!) so a lot of night navigation was done by lighthouse. We learnt very quickly to count the ’dots and dashes’ of the lighthouse first before looking at the chart reference. Very easy to look at the chart reference and convince yourself that that is what the lighthouse is telling you.

 

[ylop]

I hope nobody on these forums think it is sensible to plane around sheltered inshore waters in a power boat at night.

which users should be allowed to do that? RNLI, police, customs, harbour master, sailing club rescue boat, someone responding to a mayday?

There have been enough incidents and deaths, with uneducated or drunk people in Ribs.

it seems that the solution there might be for people to stay sober and learn what they are doing rather than just drop to a speed where it might hurt but is unlikely to kill!

The difference with Shipping is that it does not travel at speed up the middle of shallow, sheltered waters where there are tenders, crab pots, canoeists, fishermen, unlit buoys. paddleboarders, nets, moorings and anchored boats.

except when they do of course!

out of interest do you see many sups or canoeists out at night? I have seen both - both far better lit / illuminated than a typical tender.

 

[RupertW]

I enjoy a weak beer with lunch whilst sailing if the conditions are OK. Once at anchor it is another matter. If the forecast looked slightly iffy for an overnight stay, I either moderate the drinking or move to a better anchorage or even harbour for the night. I like to sleep without worrying about the weather when at anchor so I normally move.

Although our current waters mean that most nights are at marinas and we never drink at sea, we have almost always anchored most nights before that. And we do get very drunk at anchor and once or twice have had to make decisions when an unexpected gust comes in or once when our stern was getting very close to the boat behind.

Like you I would move if I felt an anchorage might be unsafe but that decision would tend to be made 24 hours before. But stopping drinking with the evening meal at anchor (or ashore and dinghy back) would be too big a lifestyle change.

 

[Newbroom]

I have always found on night passages even in local well-known waters that preparing a passage plan and entering it as a route into the plotter keeps me out of trouble. Good night passage planning includes using your crew to assist in anything they are competent in.
Don't forget the autopilot relieves a lot of strain on the helmsman/skipper if used prudently.

 

[Chawks]

So where does one go to buy up insurance write off boats? This boat could be back on the water with (a lot) of work but not impossible.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

So where does one go to buy up insurance write off boats? This boat could be back on the water with (a lot) of work but not impossible.

Theres a boat breaker‘s yard in Portsmouth.

 

[stelican]

Although our current waters mean that most nights are at marinas and we never drink at sea, we have almost always anchored most nights before that. And we do get very drunk at anchor and once or twice have had to make decisions when an unexpected gust comes in or once when our stern was getting very close to the boat behind.

Like you I would move if I felt an anchorage might be unsafe but that decision would tend to be made 24 hours before. But stopping drinking with the evening meal at anchor (or ashore and dinghy back) would be too big a lifestyle change.

So where does one go to buy up insurance write off boats? This boat could be back on the water with (a lot) of work but not impossible.

You would need a survey first.