ISDMT #2 - Is this correct?

[Grehan]

Sincere apologies for a second thread, but the first has grown like Topsy and I've had some more 'news' from Torrevieja.
This is the information I've had this morning, verbatim (not my words).

" . . . A quick update which will make the ISDMT tax very clear
I spoke to Oscar Villar who is the Port Captain ( habour marster) at Torrevieja
He stated if your boat is in Spanish waters for more than 183 days you have to pay this tax, even if you are only on board for one week or month
So it is very clear it is the boat not the person
Any person can phone Oscar Villar and check this information
He stated this is Spanish Law and this tax is being charged in, or will be charged in all Spanish Marinas
This is bad news, but at least we know where we stand . . . "

To the best of my knowledge (what do I know?) this is incorrect - isn't it?
The person (owner) has actually to be present, with the boat, for the 183 days for there to be an 'importation tax' situation/liability.
Or have I misread / misunderstood the rules?

Or have they changed? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[25931]

The situation in Portugal is the same-it is the time that the boat is present-nothing to do with occupation.
Jim

 

[grumpygit]

Do you think they are just looking for income, and would think if one gets away with it the rest of the EU will follow?
If so this could get expensive if you were to visit different countries and stay to a while. (more than 183 days)
It looks like the only way out of paying is to keep moving but this is not much use to people owning yachts abroard for their holidays etc. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[BlueSkyNick]

From everything else that's been discussed on other threads, one's immediate reaction is that Oscar Villar has either got it wrong, or he is trying it on.

Maybe somebody should ask him to provide evidence that his interpretation is correct.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think they are just looking for income, and would think if one gets away with it the rest of the EU will follow?
If so this could get expensive if you were to visit different countries and stay to a while. (more than 183 days)
It looks like the only way out of paying is to keep moving but this is not much use to people owning yachts abroard for their holidays etc. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]They might change their minds pretty quickly if their marinas suddenly start to empty at a rate of knots. Don't forget its not just the cash payment of tax on the boat, it is the re-registration and hence qualification implications that come with it.

 

[maxi77]

[ QUOTE ]
The situation in Portugal is the same-it is the time that the boat is present-nothing to do with occupation.
Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood the Potuguese situation was that boats kept there simply paid a tax on the engine power, not value and there was no re-registration etc etc involved.

 

[grumpygit]

Lets hope it Rollocks* or someone sees the bigger picture of what it might do to the local communities if a mass exodus did occur. That would be shooting themselves in the foot if it were to happen !

 

[Alyssa]

Yes you are correct.
See link to Lagos Navigators Club web-site...

http://www.lagosnavigators.net/html/boat_tax_2008.html

The tax started in Jan 2008 and applies to any boat in Portugal for more than 183 days (in or out of the water), regardless of whether occupied or not. The tax is based on horsepower and is approx €1.5 x HP

 

[25931]

I was referring to the concept of boat rather then occupant but you are mainly right although its more than just engine power.The age of the boat is another factor -our 30 yearold is exempt.
If people in Spain are right & it is the owner then perhaps they could re-register in the name of someone who lives in GB ?
Jim

 

[Grehan]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps they could re-register in the name of someone who lives in GB ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this hasn't emerged in the other ISDMT thread, but one strategy might be to divorce the ownership of a boat from the people actually using it (and being on-board more than the 183 days). We have bandied this around in the past, but no-one's tried or tested it, to the best of my knowledge.
There may be an implication that the vessel then becomes 'chartered' to the people using it, by the owner, and that might then open another can of legal and taxation worms.

Obviously, if it is the boat itself that is in Spanish (or Portuguese, or . . . ) waters for more than 183 days that then becomes liable for importation procedures, including import tax (I am specifically thinking of that, rather than other taxes and/or duties) then many more British boats in foreign waters, not being occupied or used full-time or most-of-the-time, will be affected.

 

[absit_omen]

[ QUOTE ]
I understood the Potuguese situation was that boats kept there simply paid a tax on the engine power, not value and there was no re-registration etc etc involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are quite correct.

 

[grumpygit]

IYO's would you think it was a Green Tax or just an easy way for the Portuguese to do the calculations ? If it's a Green Tax it seems a little unfair to the sailor the might only use their engine for berthing compared to a power boat. Saying that a lot cheaper than the 12%, re-flagging and re- certification Spanish style.

There again they might start taxing canvas by the sq mtr !

Does anyone know if this type of taxing is happening anywhere else in the EU, other than Spain and Portugal ? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[ironmaiden]

well one way to get your money back if you are out there for more then 183 days is to register as unemployed and claim dole money...... my ex has been out there for a while now and is now getting 430 euro a month... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JamesFrance]

There is a lot of information here:
http://www.tagweb.co.uk/isdmt/

Nothing seems definite though, but I can't find anything which would suggest that this would apply to a non resident, unless possibly a reference in a translation mentioning property owners.

There are other links from the above site also.

 

[thechevychase]

Surely this can't be correct. I,m sure MDL would have checked this out prior to all the marketing they've done to promote Sant Carles.

 

[Squeaky]

Good evening:

This post is none of my business as it does not apply to me but in reading through this post and the previous one, I have the impression that it would help to sort whether this tax applies/is directed at the individual or the yacht.

I have the impression that it is directed at the yacht therefore the time the owner spends on board or in the country is meaningless.

I think foreign (none EU) yachts (nothing to do with owners presence) have to pay a form of VAT if in EU waters for longer then six months and this seems like it something similiar.

Can anyone confirm that it is directed at the yacht or the individual (owner)??

cheers

 

[Tranona]

Seems from all that has been posted here that it is unclear! General consensus seems to be that the Spanish tax is connected, or defined by residence of the owner and is not specifically boat related, but to do with importation of means of transport. However as other posts have reported different interpretations at local level and no definitive statement in either government sources or lawyers interpretation!

Non EU vessels can be temporarily imported by non-EU residents into the EU for defined periods of time without VAT being paid. However they may still be subject to local, non VAT related taxes. If a boat is permanently imported into EU it is subject to VAT.

 

[Anonymous]

I think this was becoming clear after the post pointing us to the EU information. Up to today, I had not heard of anyone being assessed for ISDMT unless the owner had been in Spain for >183 days and even then, there seemed to be a huge tolerance; very few people were 'caught'. However, earlier this year, a poster who lives along the Spanish Med coast told us that he had heard on good authority that the Spanish authorities are being required to collect the tax.

For certain, residents are liable to pay this tax so if you have been in Spain >183 days in that CALENDAR year then you have become resident. I think you have 30 days in which to pay ISDMT after which you can be fined as well as taxed.

Now it seems (and seems to be in accordance with EU Rules) that boats belonging to non-residents are being targeted for ISDMT if those boats are in Spanish waters for >183 days --- presumably also in a calendar year?

Depending on the value of your boat, the main problem might be a requirement to actually re-flag as a Spanish yacht (almost impossible for vessels over 5 years or so, I am told). Anyway, there is no way that I am going to sail my yacht with a Spanish flag unless or until I become a Spanish resident!!

Those who say they'll change their minds might be right but officialdom tends to be very stupid. This might not happen for a year or so. I think I've heard enough now to know that Spain is not a safe place to stay for >183 days. However, what I don't know is whether one could stay, say, from late July to early June -- i.e. almost a year -- and be completely safe? I THINK that the rules are 183 days in a calendar year but if the authorities are really enforcing this I would want to check that.

Ways round for people are to go back and forth between France and Spain (doesn't help you much, James?) or Spain and Gib or Spain and Morocco (e.g. Smir). I don't fancy staying in Smir for long (or Gib, come to that). So I suppose for us it might mean Spain/Gib/Portugal. Almerimar/Marina Bay/Lagos?

It is a bit of a problem but must not be ignored. Wouldn't it be great if one of those organisations we belong to, to look after our yachting interests, would get a legal opinion for their members?

 

[gavin_lacey]

The situation at present is that most regions are not enforcing this legislation. Is it really a good idea for people to bring it to the forefront by phoning marinas and tax offices asking about it? I think the legislation covers all boats but the regions refused to enforce it, not wishing to destroy their yaching industry, with one or two exceptions who apply it to residents.

 

[Anonymous]

Running on from that post last night, from the EU rules posted on the other thread...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31983L0182:EN:HTML

[ QUOTE ]
Article 3

Temporary importation of certain means of transport for private use

Where a private vehicle, caravan, pleasure boat, private aircraft, tricycle or bicycle is imported temporarily, the item imported shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1 for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that: (a) the individual importing such goods: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;

(bb) employs the means of transport in question for his private use;

(b) the said means of transport is not disposed of or hired out in the Member State of temporary importation or lent to a resident of that State. However, private vehicles belonging to a car-hire firm having its head office in the Community may be re-hired to non-residents with a view to being re-exported, if they are in the country as a result of a hire contract which ended in that country. They may also be returned by an employee of the car-hire firm to the Member State where they were originally hired, even if such employee is resident in the Member State of temporary importation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Article 7

General rules for determining residence

1. For the purposes of this Directive, "normal residence" means the place where a person usually lives, that is for at least 185 days in each calendar year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties because of personal ties which show close links between that person and the place where he is living.

However, the normal residence of a person whose occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in two or more Member States shall be regarded as being the place of his personal ties, provided that such person returns there regularly. This last condition need not be met where the person is living in a Member State in order to carry out a task of a definite duration. Attendance at a university or school shall not imply transfer of normal residence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting to see that the time rules for importing the vehicle are "6 months in any 12 months" whereas the residency rules are 185 days in a calendar year. There can be a huge difference especially for the cruiser who is wintering -- arrives in Sept/Oct and leaves in May. That is 9 months in 12 months but only 4 months worst case in any calendar year.

The point about residency, as I see it, is that if you are deemed resident then you play by the local rules with the one exception that there is a double-taxation treaty preventing you from paying the same tax twice in two states. That doesn't seem to apply to ISDMT as there is no such thing in the UK.