Is This a Shoddy Repair Job???

[Biggles Wader]

Do you get your four grand back if you pull out or have you been suckered in by parting with dosh up front? This is a money pit only suited to someone vastly experienced in boat projects. And even they will lose money on it.

 

[Tranona]

OK, I joined. 17.50 pounds fine. Checkout 22.50 pounds for you foreigners. Fine. Give credit card. 32.76 pounds charged. 10.26 Royal Mail fee. FINE.



I put down 3,000 Euros. And invested 1,000 Euros so far.
But haven't signed off on this repair to officially buy it yet.
Thinking of asking them to do it again and properly, since it is in our purchase contract.

BTW, got an estimate of 950 Euros plus cranes for transport, which sounds cheap compared to your costs.
Tempting. Would be wonderful to just have it home and be able to refit as you've suggested a few times, in my own time.
Learning the boat as I go.



Doubt it. He was a marina owner for years. And used by vendor as surveyor in other deals.
Vendor has been selling more expensive yachts for 25 years.

The transport element was £1500 including VAT for 230 miles which took 2 days. Loaded 9am one day offloaded 8am the next. similar size/weight boat.

Lesson learned about surveyors. Recommended by vendor is not a good idea, although I did that recently because it was a very particular boat and this surveyor had actually surveyed it 20 years previously for the vendor. Despite that it "failed" the survey and I withdrew from the deal. Suggest you try to find another surveyor who knows about the boat and spend the day with him (or her) doing a full survey explaining everything as he goes along. That is what I did with my recent purchase as I bought it without a survey but needed one to get insurance and briefed the surveyor on exactly what I wanted. The result is a detailed report that forms the basis for my schedule of work. He will revisit when the boat is finished and give a report on the work and a new valuation for my insurer. The extra value of being there was that we discussed alternate ways of doing things and I ended up with a much clearer idea of what I was taking on to get from what I bought to what I want. Same approach with things like upgrading sails and rigging, replacing the engine and sterngear, rewiring and so on. Even though I have years of experience and done a similar project before there is always something to be learned from taking advice from people who do this sort of thing for a living - they are not all rogues!

You have a powerful and fairly complex boat for a first time go. Take your time, get to know it and it will pay off long term.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yeah I know right? And he spoke English just fine come to think of it.



Yeah really. I need to have another chat with vendor.
I was dropped a 500 Euro prop shaft leak surprise, a 550 engine service surprise, an emergency lift right back out of water that I'm expected to pay. And now I'm being handed a mast support repair which is shoddy by all estimates, after most of a summer's wait.

By Fr J Hacket's numbers which are pretty close to my own first estimates, I'm still getting a 'reasonably' good deal on the boat.
It just seems that this straw that's breaking the camel's back, a highly questionable mast support repair is in fact not a straw but a potentially pretty big deal.

I wonder how outrageous it would be to demand they just fix the mast support again.
After all it is in the contract. And they can argue they didn't know about the prop shaft leak, which seems reasonable that they didn't know...

Yes I would argue and expect to have a surveyor support the argument that the compression post repair is not fit for purpose and would want something to counter that. I thought you said €350 for the shaft seal it's a bit expensive the seal is about a €100 and about an hours work to replace. If I were replacing it I would choose a better seal, opinions vary the Radice is a better option although very similar to the Volvo personally I would go with a PSS more expensive but I think better. If I were you and wanted the boat as much as you do and I can see the reason, I would say the mast compression post repair is inadequate and certainly not €2K worth say you will take the boat as is but want €2K off the price ( expect to get €1K) get the engine and shaft seal done by someone competent ( not the charlatan that did the mast) then motor it home through the canal, if you can get someone to help you with the lines. If you are stuck with it as is and nothing off really you have to walk away or expect to put quite a bit into it straight away. It could be a good boat but isn't at the moment.
Also check if storage is paid or an ongoing bill if it's paid and transferable for a while that's good if it isn't then as soon as you own the boat it's down to you and the weekly bills will add up quickly.

 

[Concerto]

As the job has been bodged and not done as agreed in the contract, I would offer €2500 less to cover a proper repair. Then get a new mast post made and correctly fitted. For this you will need the mast removed, which if using road transport will already be prepared. You will still have to have it restepped once the job is complete which is an additional cost.

I have also posted extra information on the WOA forum about the BoatLine member for the Storm. Do follow this up.

 

[penfold]

Shonky as the workmanship is the weld looks solid enough in so far as it can be seen. The pole cover will be held on with a zip or velcro. The surveyor can supply another copy of the survey unless he inhabits the 1950s and uses a typewriter; in the form of a word file or similar Google translate will get you the gist of what's being said for free. I'd be happy to move the boat as the strut is doing what it's supposed to do, it's just not been done properly in stainless steel.

 

[thinwater]

Shonky as the workmanship cosmetics are, is the weld looks solid enough in so far as it can be seen. The pole cover will be held on with a zip or velcro. The surveyor can supply another copy of the survey unless he inhabits the 1950s and uses a typewriter; in the form of a word file or similar Google translate will get you the gist of what's being said for free. I'd be happy to move the boat as the strut is doing what it's supposed to do, it's just not been done properly in stainless steel.

Please clarify if the original plates were removed, not just covered. To my eye, they removed the old steel and just failed to clean up. Basically, the repair looks like the original construction to me. The weld bead is good (weld inspector), suggesting it is strong and the metal work is sound. The rust above the bead was most likely superficial (he would have known when he cut the base off).

Not pretty, and not worth more than a day's rate, but it looks to match the original standard of construction. I would have knocked that out before lunch, to that appearance standard. It will like last as long as the remaining useful life of the boat. Yeah, the cosmetics are disappointing, but I really don't think they have much bearing, and it is in the bilge. If the work order didn't specify stainless, I don't know why anyone would be expect it. The water in the bilge was certainly not in the scope of work.

So, overpriced but functional. A lot of this comes down to providing a detailed work order, not just "fix this."

 

[KevinV]

Are you keeping the boat in Amsterdam? Many Dutch and all the professional ones I have met speak and write in English.

Absolutely agreed, but writing legible technical English is not everyone's forte, or would take more (chargeable) time - hence the offer. I'm on holiday from the end of the month, it'd probably be more interesting to do than reading a pulp thriller.

 

[penfold]

Please clarify if the original plates were removed, not just covered. To my eye, they removed the old steel and just failed to clean up. Basically, the repair looks like the original construction to me. The weld bead is good (weld inspector), suggesting it is strong and the metal work is sound. The rust above the bead was most likely superficial (he would have known when he cut the base off).

Not pretty, and not worth more than a day's rate, but it looks to match the original standard of construction. I would have knocked that out before lunch, to that appearance standard. It will like last as long as the remaining useful life of the boat. Yeah, the cosmetics are disappointing, but I really don't think they have much bearing, and it is in the bilge. If the work order didn't specify stainless, I don't know why anyone would be expect it. The water in the bilge was certainly not in the scope of work.

So, overpriced but functional. A lot of this comes down to providing a detailed work order, not just "fix this."

As far as I can see they've removed the old metalwork, copied it and reinstalled. Housekeeping is rotten hence I said shonky workmanship, but you can't get the staff these days. Very much the part I have put in bold. I'd expect stainless these days as the material cost difference is such a small part of a work order like this, but if the customer does not ask he does not get.

 

[thinwater]

... I'd expect stainless these days as the material cost difference is such a small part of a work order like this, but if the customer does not ask he does not get.

Unless the work order requested replacement of the entire post, which I gather it did not, using stainless would have meant welding carbon steel to stainless, which although not that difficult, will concentrate corrosion. I wouldn't do it in a bilge. And the original was carbon steel.

It really did require discussion. For the price, not knowing how the post was installed, a new post should have been included.

Weird. I would ask for a cost break down.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’m not sure about the fascination with stainless in this context. Westerly Yachts were all built (AFAIK) with mild steel mast compression posts. Ours certainly is and so long as it’s maintained there’s nothing wrong with it. After all some people have whole boats made of mild steel and swear by them.
If cleaning up the bilge wasn’t specified, it won’t get done. Especially by people doing rush jobs.
I doubt very much that the bodged fix will cause you any problems getting the boat home in benign conditions. All IMHO of course.

I like Westerly Storms and for the money you’re talking about and some of your comments on the rest of the boat, it looks a very good deal.

One last thought. Stop worrying about the lengthy list of problems. Every boat I’ve ever owned or sailed had a long list of things I thought needed mending or modifying or improving. You just need to recognise which are the life and death or catastrophic ones vs the nice to do. Mast falling down is catastrophic but if the photos are to be believed., its not falling down any time soon, despite the poor aesthetics of the repair.

 

[eilerts]

Are you sure the new plate is on top of the old one? Pictures can sometimes be hard to interpret. Surely, it looks like that at the first glance, but it could as well be that what look like the old plate underneath is just a bad stain on the GRP base. Unless the old plate is stuck for a reason not known to us, it would take more work to leave the plate than removing it.
In the same pictures, a shadow makes it really looks like the new plate on the side is put on top of the old, but if you look at the bolt treads, you see that more treads are visible, not fewer.
Ask the workshop about the material, what parts of the pole is new material, and if your assessment of the pictures are correct. It could be that the jobs is actually just fine.

 

[Laysula]

There's an old saying but very true. "If you want a good job doing, do it yourself".

 

[penfold]

Are you sure the new plate is on top of the old one? Pictures can sometimes be hard to interpret. Surely, it looks like that at the first glance, but it could as well be that what look like the old plate underneath is just a bad stain on the GRP base. Unless the old plate is stuck for a reason not known to us, it would take more work to leave the plate than removing it.
In the same pictures, a shadow makes it really looks like the new plate on the side is put on top of the old, but if you look at the bolt treads, you see that more treads are visible, not fewer.
Ask the workshop about the material, what parts of the pole is new material, and if your assessment of the pictures are correct. It could be that the jobs is actually just fine.

What is there looks like rust staining and what I suspect is some kind of bitumen paint that Westerly daubed over the top once installed to keep the briny oggin off the steelwork.

I’m not sure about the fascination with stainless in this context. Westerly Yachts we’re all built (AFAIK) with mild steel mast compression posts. Ours certainly is and so long as it’s maintained there’s nothing wrong with it. After all some people have whole boats made of mild steel and swear by them.
If cleaning up the bilge wasn’t specified, it won’t get done. Especially by people doing rush jobs.

SS just means it won't go grotty in the bilge and you can do away with the 70s-tastic vinyl sleeve from the strut.

 

[Blueboatman]

Wot yew want in there is a pitch pine mineshaft prop . Argh.

 

[john_morris_uk]

What is there looks like rust staining and what I suspect is some kind of bitumen paint that Westerly daubed over the top once installed to keep the briny oggin off the steelwork.

SS just means it won't go grotty in the bilge and you can do away with the 70s-tastic vinyl sleeve from the strut.

SS in the bilge isn’t a panacea. It suffers from crevice corrosion. (Don’t ask how I know!)
We’ve got vinyl round our compression post (just had it replaced) but some Westerly’s had the compression post boxed in with teak.

 

[Wansworth]

Wot yew want in there is a pitch pine mineshaft prop . Argh.

But round the corners?

 

[Bilgediver]

Are you sure the new plate is on top of the old one? Pictures can sometimes be hard to interpret. Surely, it looks like that at the first glance, but it could as well be that what look like the old plate underneath is just a bad stain on the GRP base. Unless the old plate is stuck for a reason not known to us, it would take more work to leave the plate than removing it.
In the same pictures, a shadow makes it really looks like the new plate on the side is put on top of the old, but if you look at the bolt treads, you see that more treads are visible, not fewer.
Ask the workshop about the material, what parts of the pole is new material, and if your assessment of the pictures are correct. It could be that the jobs is actually just fine.

The fact that more threads are visible now than previously supports my concern that the newer parts may have been made of a thinner material then the original I would also have concerns as to what the leatherette sleeve on the strut is hiding. Why did the contractors not refinish and paint the underlying boat structure before seating the new components?

 

[penfold]

The fact that more threads are visible now than previously supports my concern that the newer parts may have been made of a thinner material then the original I would also have concerns as to what the leatherette sleeve on the strut is hiding. Why did the contractors not refinish and paint the underlying boat structure before seating the new components?

Hard to say from the pics, it's possible they've gone slightly thinner, perhaps down from ~8mm to 6mm; it's not ideal having contractors play fast and loose with scantlings but it won't make any difference here.

 

[Bilgediver]

Hard to say from the pics, it's possible they've gone slightly thinner, perhaps down from ~8mm to 6mm; it's not ideal having contractors play fast and loose with scantlings but it won't make any difference here.

Might just deform more easily to take up the rough contours of the underlaying structure which might not have ben adequately prepared.

 

[sailaboutvic]

There's an old saying but very true. "If you want a good job doing, do it yourself".

There another one that goes , why pay someone to bodge a job when you can do it yourself for free