Is there a perfect boat for me?

Tranona

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DO any of the moodys and westerlies of that period have transom or skeg hung rudders? I wasn't aware of that. The others I will have a peek at.
They are all skeg hung but partial skeg rather than full. The problem with full skeg hung is that you can't get any balance area forward of the pivot point which is desirable to reduce loads and provide directional stability. The dropping of skegs is just part of the development of hull forms with shorter keel, flatter bottoms and wider stern quarters that in turn (apart from improving sailing performance) give you the hull volume to enable sub 40' boats to provide the accommodation you require! As I said once you go over 40' these constraints become less of a problem and you can get the accommodation with more traditional hull forms like the Oyster 46 I was looking at just today, or the HR 42 that was alongside it.

Perhaps you should reconsider your prejudice against spade rudders - although with your other brief it does not widen your choice very much except you can then add the Bavaria Ocean 38 and 40 plus the Beneteau 36CC and Dufour36CC to your list, all of which take you into the "modern" era in terms of interior while retaining the features that made the Moodys etc so popular. The late 1990s Moodys are also close in style to modern boats, but few built as pricy.

You don't say what your budget is , but you can get 1980s boats of the type suggested for less than £50k in reasonable nick, but to fully meet your requirement with "modern" interior and systems you are looking at probably double that as a starting point. BTW you will have to look hard to actually buy a decent example of any of the boats mentioned simply because many people like them so good ones are used and many that do come up for sale require significant upgrading because the owners have had their fun and probably can't face the thought of all the work required to keep them in good cruising condition. So the purchase price of many is just the first down payment. As you might have seen from my recent posts I have just bought a boat that would be on the bottom end of your size range but otherwise fit many of your criteria (except of course accommodation). At some point I might post my budget spreadsheet which will frighten anybody who is thinking of doing similar if the objective like mine is to get a boat equipped to the same basic standard as a modern boat, but in an old style hull. Just reinforcing what I said earlier, every single boat I looked at was owned by somebody giving up sailing because either they had to (2 were in homes and I was dealing with relatives), or were giving up before they were forced to. Most were in reasonable working order, but had last had money spent on them 10-20 years ago when their owners were in their prime. Had similar experience today looking at a one off 46' Bluewater cruiser being sold by the original owner builder. State of the art 1980s and widely cruised over the next 25 years or so, but there is nothing more recent than 10 years old in gear and just about everything in the systems needed replacing or overhauling (without even thinking about the teak deck!) My mate and I thought the total bill to bring it up to scratch would be 3 times the asking price.
 

steve yates

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You miss the point.

Jonic also is on board - if you are looking purely on paper without viewing the boat you dont get the same feel for it. Something you put down as a no-no might prove to be acceptable in the flesh.

First Mate and I are fairly new to sailing, but not boating, boating goes back to 1971, Sailing to 2003.

Early days our boating choices were 'what can we afford'.

Eight years ago, when we were looking for our current boat, which took two years and five countries, a more mature attitude and with a few bob it was a different ball game.

We never achieved all the must haves because unless we had a custom build it did not exist.

One 'must have' , the safe sea berth, was switched to 'nice to have' because, upon reflection our sailing is unlikely to require one at our age and more importantly, inclination.

If we were 40 years old and in the same financial position our choice would be different. A circumnavigation perhaps.

We spent our adventurous youth doing other things. Now, at our age, comfort alongside or on the hook is of far more importance.
No, I get it, asyou say must haves may change, but it is as important toknow what you dont want as it is to know what you do want. Hence having a must have list. I want the heads by the companionway as I will singlehand a LOT, and it makes it more feasible for a quick dash down. If I had everything else, it I could probably lose that. (By the way, I dont mean 2 heads, I would prefer just one)
Two good sea berths will never change, even if its the saloon settee with lee cloth. I will need them at some point.
The spade rudder will not change, ( sorry tranona) I already lost a skeg, (so it did its job ) and I dont like to think about the result if that had been the spade rudder I have.
I will never buy a boat that cannot heave to comfortably and well.

So the must haves do have a purpose.

By modern design inside I dont mean awb , bit rather not the coffin like style of a twister, great boat though it is, I just wouldnt want to spend a length of time living at anchor on one.

Of course looking at a boat in the flesh is very different from on paper, but I wouldnt want to waste a brokers time looking at a boat that might be great, but had an unsupported spade rudder, or no grab handles/fiddles .

I would want a boat that can sail almost anywhere, and give relative comfort in port, the two are not mutually exclusive, although many boats do one but not the other very very well. I‘m not interested in those ones :)
 

Concerto

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Steve, I have to ask why you want a skeg. My last experience of a full skeg was on a 34ft German Frers in the 1980's. The boat was beautifully directional stable, but in heavy weather it was too stable and would not react quickly enough to quartering waves and requiring full helm frequently. Also in the Dutch canals, I remember another problem when we were going to into a lock, we were to berth alongside a twin screw motor cruise and just at the wrong moment the outboard propeller was used to push their stern in, unfortunately it caaught the rudder and skeg and pushed us away. There was no room to use the engine to correct our stern, so a warp was thrown and she was heaved back using the genoa winch - definitely not worth trying singlehanded.
 

steve yates

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They are all skeg hung but partial skeg rather than full. The problem with full skeg hung is that you can't get any balance area forward of the pivot point which is desirable to reduce loads and provide directional stability. The dropping of skegs is just part of the development of hull forms with shorter keel, flatter bottoms and wider stern quarters that in turn (apart from improving sailing performance) give you the hull volume to enable sub 40' boats to provide the accommodation you require! As I said once you go over 40' these constraints become less of a problem and you can get the accommodation with more traditional hull forms like the Oyster 46 I was looking at just today, or the HR 42 that was alongside it.

Perhaps you should reconsider your prejudice against spade rudders - although with your other brief it does not widen your choice very much except you can then add the Bavaria Ocean 38 and 40 plus the Beneteau 36CC and Dufour36CC to your list, all of which take you into the "modern" era in terms of interior while retaining the features that made the Moodys etc so popular. The late 1990s Moodys are also close in style to modern boats, but few built as pricy.

You don't say what your budget is , but you can get 1980s boats of the type suggested for less than £50k in reasonable nick, but to fully meet your requirement with "modern" interior and systems you are looking at probably double that as a starting point. BTW you will have to look hard to actually buy a decent example of any of the boats mentioned simply because many people like them so good ones are used and many that do come up for sale require significant upgrading because the owners have had their fun and probably can't face the thought of all the work required to keep them in good cruising condition. So the purchase price of many is just the first down payment. As you might have seen from my recent posts I have just bought a boat that would be on the bottom end of your size range but otherwise fit many of your criteria (except of course accommodation). At some point I might post my budget spreadsheet which will frighten anybody who is thinking of doing similar if the objective like mine is to get a boat equipped to the same basic standard as a modern boat, but in an old style hull. Just reinforcing what I said earlier, every single boat I looked at was owned by somebody giving up sailing because either they had to (2 were in homes and I was dealing with relatives), or were giving up before they were forced to. Most were in reasonable working order, but had last had money spent on them 10-20 years ago when their owners were in their prime. Had similar experience today looking at a one off 46' Bluewater cruiser being sold by the original owner builder. State of the art 1980s and widely cruised over the next 25 years or so, but there is nothing more recent than 10 years old in gear and just about everything in the systems needed replacing or overhauling (without even thinking about the teak deck!) My mate and I thought the total bill to bring it up to scratch would be 3 times the asking price.
My westerly longbow is not skeg hung, its an unsupported spade.
Budget would depend on boat and size, while I agree that the bigger boats meet all the criteria, I dont want the long term runnig and fixing costs of the bigger boats, hence under 40 foot is a preference.
I would prefer under 50k, but towards 100k could be possible in the right circumstances, absolutely no more. I would be more inclined to buy a flat for rental and spend less on a boat though to be honest, I prefer income do stuff over spending on things.

My criteria for bringing up to scratch would be decent sails, reliable engine, solid rigging and proper wiring. ( and no bloody vinyl headling! )
I wouldnt care about 10 year old instruments, that would make them much more modern than the ones I am used to :)

To clarify modern, I really meant liveable, and not coffin like, it doesn’t have to be like the interior of a new bav.

Sorry, I’ll never get over myprejudice against spade rudders. I have one :)
 

steve yates

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Steve, I have to ask why you want a skeg. My last experience of a full skeg was on a 34ft German Frers in the 1980's. The boat was beautifully directional stable, but in heavy weather it was too stable and would not react quickly enough to quartering waves and requiring full helm frequently. Also in the Dutch canals, I remember another problem when we were going to into a lock, we were to berth alongside a twin screw motor cruise and just at the wrong moment the outboard propeller was used to push their stern in, unfortunately it caaught the rudder and skeg and pushed us away. There was no room to use the engine to correct our stern, so a warp was thrown and she was heaved back using the genoa winch - definitely not worth trying singlehanded.
Nothing to do with the skeg per se concerto, just that I want a rudder that does not leave a huge hole in the boatif it gets ripped off. I dont like the leverage of an unsupported spade rudder in a collision with something.
 

Wansworth

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No, I get it, asyou say must haves may change, but it is as important toknow what you dont want as it is to know what you do want. Hence having a must have list. I want the heads by the companionway as I will singlehand a LOT, and it makes it more feasible for a quick dash down. If I had everything else, it I could probably lose that. (By the way, I dont mean 2 heads, I would prefer just one)
Two good sea berths will never change, even if its the saloon settee with lee cloth. I will need them at some point.
The spade rudder will not change, ( sorry tranona) I already lost a skeg, (so it did its job ) and I dont like to think about the result if that had been the spade rudder I have.
I will never buy a boat that cannot heave to comfortably and well.

So the must haves do have a purpose.

By modern design inside I dont mean awb , bit rather not the coffin like style of a twister, great boat though it is, I just wouldnt want to spend a length of time living at anchor on one.

Of course looking at a boat in the flesh is very different from on paper, but I wouldnt want to waste a brokers time looking at a boat that might be great, but had an unsupported spade rudder, or no grab handles/fiddles .

I would want a boat that can sail almost anywhere, and give relative comfort in port, the two are not mutually exclusive, although many boats do one but not the other very very well. I‘m not interested in those ones :)
Nine ton Hillyard?
 

jonic

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Steve, our Moody 38 and prior to that our Westerly Corsair took us a combined 25,000 miles through the Med, Caribbean and USA. Even hit a reef at 5 knots with the Corsair in the Bahamas and ended up unscathed. Both had partial skegs, long (robustly fixed) fins and large very comfy aft cabins. Especially the Moody 38.

The Moody 38 was of this era .
 
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Ashman

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A Victory 40 would do the job. We’ve had ours 10 years and sailed 30kNM offshore and across oceans in comfort and safety. Just replaced the standing rigging again and ordered a replacement engine so that she’ll be ready for our next adventures
 

KompetentKrew

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Good luck with that.

IMHO it is folly to completely disregard a boat for not having a 'must have' .

We found a close to ideal for our requirements with our current boat, but of course our list of must have and nice to have was different to yours. Far different.

Our previous boat would have filled most of your wishes.

It was an Island Packet 350 built in 1999.

Get as close as you can to your ideal, but like the boat designer, compromise.................................
+1

I had many of OP's requirements when I looked at boats - an encapsulated keel and sturdy rudder - and put in an offer on a Trintella 38 (similar to a 1980's Halberg Rassy).

After that sale fell through, my current boat was one of the last few remaining available on my shortlist to look at, and I was surprised how much I liked her - she just spoke to me. I accepted a bolt on keel on the grounds that she was built by a small jachtwerf which I considered more trustworthy than a mass-produced boat - some might say this trust misplaced, but epoxy composite is stronger than polyester GRP, at least.

Having singlehanded my boat to Portugal I am very pleased with her; I would not like to handle in a marina a boat of my previous ideal.
 

Tranona

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Sorry, I’ll never get over myprejudice against spade rudders. I have one :)
Comparing your rudder with a proper modern spade rudder is like comparing a Model T with a Focus. Leave your prejudice behind in the 1970s. Spade rudders are almost universal now and for the last 25 or 30 years have been mainly properly engineered and built - although like everything mechanical the odd nasty, mostly well known and easily avoided.

The feeling and reality of space does come with volume and most of the centre cockpit boats do have that although some tend to cram in rather a lot of heavy furniture and berths. The narrower aft cockpit boats some have suggested are more coffin like particularly when they cram in aft cabins. Some exceptions at the top of the size range like the Warrior 38 and 40 which would probably be my choice in that size and price range as the HR 37 which would probably be my first choice would break the budget by a lot.

The only way to find out what might suit is to actually go on boats and "feel" them. You can get too hung up on specific design features and models, but in reality every single boat mentioned so far is perfectly capable of cruising just about anywhere as they were designed for that - and proved over the years. The same really applies to many more recent mass produced boats which now dominate the cruising market, even though the diehards decry them.
 

robmcg

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I can understand your hesitancy over spade rudders. For most cruising yachts, they are perfectly adequate but for ocean work, their advantages quickly evaporate. A 'pastime' of mine is looking at the tops of spade rudders in the boatyard. You will be surprised by the number that exhibit cracking where the stock enters the blade. I have also spoken to several people who specialise in boat repairs. If you remove remedial work for osmosis from the equation, they estimate 80%+ of rudder repairs are on spade rudders. Yes this is partly reflected in the fact that they are relatively common but doesn't account for the volume requiring remedial work. People more in the know are also dubious of the suitability of spade rudders for ocean work. This is quite an interesting article - albeit hopefully a rare occurrence for most of us.
What’s wrong with spade rudders? - Ocean Sailor Magazine
 

billskip

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Gibsea 126. Best most solid grp boat I have ever sailed. Heavy boat and you can feel it, not fast, cruises well, goes where you point it, stays where you stop it, goes astern easy and easy single handled. but not good aft cabins,for that you need centre cockpit imho,and that's not for me for single hand sailing.
 

Malabarista

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Idly speculating here, and I know all boats are a compromise, BUT….. are there boats that fit these requirements? It seems to be a cross between the seaworthyness of older designs with more modern interior approach.
Transom or skeg hung rudder, absolutely no spade rudders.
long keel , with or without cutaway forefoot, at a pinch a bolted long fin keel, ( that have a distinctly horizontal profile like westerly’s, rather than a vertical one, )
Definitely no plumb bows
medium to heavy displacement with good motion at sea, can go upwind without constant pounding and slamming.
Heads and galley by the companionway
can fit a shower in the heads, even if only sit down.
Comfortable aft double cabin for harbour living, ( think this is where it all falls down :) ) and long forecabin for at sea living.
two good sea berths
good grab handles and fiddles appropriate for an ocean going boat.
can cross oceans in relative comfort.
can heave to easily and well.

Those are the must haves,
The would likes to make my perfect boat that I could compromise on if all the above were met are….
32 to 40 foot length
u shaped saloon,
ketch or cutter /slutter rigged
workbench/spares area.

If some of the 80’s 90’ moodys and westerlies had different rudder types, they would be very close.
I think you’re describing our boat if you are flexible on a few points ? the length just needs adjusting by 2’ . The ‘heads close to companionway’ clause needs defining. Will a straight line three paces qualify?
She’s a Laurent Giles Moody 44’ 1970’s there are a couple if them around i believe.
Sadly ( for you) ours is not for sale.
 

dunedin

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