Is there a perfect boat for me?

[steve yates]

Comparing your rudder with a proper modern spade rudder is like comparing a Model T with a Focus. Leave your prejudice behind in the 1970s. Spade rudders are almost universal now and for the last 25 or 30 years have been mainly properly engineered and built - although like everything mechanical the odd nasty, mostly well known and easily avoided.

The feeling and reality of space does come with volume and most of the centre cockpit boats do have that although some tend to cram in rather a lot of heavy furniture and berths. The narrower aft cockpit boats some have suggested are more coffin like particularly when they cram in aft cabins. Some exceptions at the top of the size range like the Warrior 38 and 40 which would probably be my choice in that size and price range as the HR 37 which would probably be my first choice would break the budget by a lot.

The only way to find out what might suit is to actually go on boats and "feel" them. You can get too hung up on specific design features and models, but in reality every single boat mentioned so far is perfectly capable of cruising just about anywhere as they were designed for that - and proved over the years. The same really applies to many more recent mass produced boats which now dominate the cruising market, even though the diehards decry them.

I appreciate your contributions tranona, but spade rudders are a complete no for me for a boat I might want to cross an ocean. You may think my prejudices are in the 70’s , thats my perogative,. I simply do not see the point of an unsupported spade rudder when I can have a safer alternative, like fixed to a skeg or transom hung. Its a risk I can choose to eliminate, and Ido so choose. ( I havent heard many regular ocean sailors singing the praises of spades ) I dont care what mass production boatyards choose to put in their boats, as the majority of expensive boats are hardly used and rarely put to a proper test. It may seem a strange example, but lasers for example are usually used extensively for what they are designed for, fast dinghy racing, and any deficiences in design and production would stand out like a sore thumb. A cruising yacht for me should be designed to be seaworthy for safe offshore work, and while I am completely inexperienced, I am quite aware that most of them are used for no such thing, they sit in uk marinas,, rarely going out in over F5, or they day hop in the med from anchorage to anchorage or port to port, so they are not tested to the degree the majority of lasers are.
I visited the boat show a few years ago and looked at some bavarias and beneatau’s, which I wouldnt touch with a barge pole. I have been told that late 80’s versions are much better built and more practical, but that just proves that modern techniques and approaches are NOT always better.

 

[steve yates]

Steve, our Moody 38 and prior to that our Westerly Corsair took us a combined 25,000 miles through the Med, Caribbean and USA. Even hit a reef at 5 knots with the Corsair in the Bahamas and ended up unscathed. Both had partial skegs, long (robustly fixed) fins and large very comfy aft cabins. Especially the Moody 38.

The Moody 38 was of this era .

Did you find you used your aft cabin at anchorage? And sea beths on paassage?

 

[whaup]

Hallberg Rassy 342 for sale Netherlands, Hallberg Rassy boats for sale, Hallberg Rassy used boat sales, Hallberg Rassy Sailing Yachts For Sale 2006 HALLBERG RASSY 342 - Apollo Duck

 

[KompetentKrew]

Contest 38s Ketch

I think I looked at a couple of Contest 38's. Perhaps it's just a matter of headroom - I'm 6'2" - but I found them small considering their length.

Also, I don't understand the importance of large cabins, since all the time you spend in there is spent lying down anyway. I can stand up next to the closet in the entrance to my cabin, and I can sit up in bed. What else does one need? I place more importance in comfort elsewhere (my boat has a nice hard doghouse, for instance, that I now wouldn't sacrifice for anything).

 

[Tranona]

I appreciate your contributions tranona, but spade rudders are a complete no for me for a boat I might want to cross an ocean. You may think my prejudices are in the 70’s , thats my perogative,. I simply do not see the point of an unsupported spade rudder when I can have a safer alternative, like fixed to a skeg or transom hung. Its a risk I can choose to eliminate, and Ido so choose. ( I havent heard many regular ocean sailors singing the praises of spades ) I dont care what mass production boatyards choose to put in their boats, as the majority of expensive boats are hardly used and rarely put to a proper test. It may seem a strange example, but lasers for example are usually used extensively for what they are designed for, fast dinghy racing, and any deficiences in design and production would stand out like a sore thumb. A cruising yacht for me should be designed to be seaworthy for safe offshore work, and while I am completely inexperienced, I am quite aware that most of them are used for no such thing, they sit in uk marinas,, rarely going out in over F5, or they day hop in the med from anchorage to anchorage or port to port, so they are not tested to the degree the majority of lasers are.
I visited the boat show a few years ago and looked at some bavarias and beneatau’s, which I wouldnt touch with a barge pole. I have been told that late 80’s versions are much better built and more practical, but that just proves that modern techniques and approaches are NOT always better.

I appreciate what you are saying, however just pointing out two things. First by focusing on what might happen when crossing oceans, you are ignoring all the thousands of boats with spade rudders, bolt on keels and all the other features that are supposed to make them unsuitable but still carry their owners and crews safely. There are more than enough examples available on blogs, youtubes and even among members of this forum to show what is possible to achieve with modern boats. The second thing is that you limit choice because some of the things you want are only achievable in hull forms that have spade rudders and as I pointed out it is increasingly difficult to find older style boats in decent condition. In a sense though the decision is made for you with your budget.

Of course older style boats with the features you are looking for were popular for ocean cruising primarily because that is what was available at the time, in just the same way that the previous generation tended to use boats derived from working craft. The reality is that such boats have not been built for getting on for 30 years and yet people have continued to buy new boats for cruising and successfully achieved their objectives. You won't hear people "singing the praises" of spade rudders, because for those who have boats with them it is a non issue - you only here loud voices from people who DONT have them. Just think about all the well known designers of ocean cruising boats who have been round long enough to have designed boats with a wide variety of rudder types, and they all design boats now with spade rudders - guess they, their builders and owners are all wrong!

I have been around long enough to have seen all the major developments in boat design and building and I would not want to see boats built in the way they were in the 1970s and 80s when I was working in the industry. As I said I have just bought a 1979 built ocean cruiser which at that time was considered just about the best you could buy in its size, and certainly one of the most successful ocean cruisers built in terms of the number of ocean crossings. In terms of quality of build my Bavaria is light years ahead, and it actually horrifies me when I see some of the poor techniques and materials used in its construction even though I saw them being built at the time. I have bought it because I had a long experience with a smaller version of the same design and I shall enjoy restoring it and bringing the systems up to a modern standard. I have no intention of doing any serious cruising, and if I was still able to do that I would have kept my Bavaria.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I havent heard many regular ocean sailors singing the praises of spades

Probably because the only people who care are those who dislike them.

Everyone else buys a boat based on other criteria and they take whatever rudder they're given.

On any boat less than 20 or 30 years old it's 99% likely to be a spade because naval architects recognise the benefits of them - they sing their praises with their designs, and the thousands of boats that are built with spade rudders.

I'm not 100% convinced that your preferred rudders are inherently safer - whichever rudder type the designer chooses, he has to engineer the attachment points strong enough. I appreciate that a skeg provides protection against collisions, but if we applied the worst case scenario to everything on the boat then we'd never go sailing. A lot of what's "necessary" for offshore or ocean sailing is a matter of what the skipper finds reassuring.

I know a middle-aged lady who last year crossed the Atlantic and back in a 1990's Jeanneau 45.2 - this makes at least her 3rd transat on that boat. She loves her boat and I'm pretty sure she feels her life massively enriched by her sailing, but I don't think this is the kind of detail she is pious over. As far as I'm aware all maintenance is done by boatyards but you should not judge her critically for that, as she's a real mile-muncher and single- or shorthands long distances,

 

[Tranona]

I think I looked at a couple of Contest 38's. Perhaps it's just a matter of headroom - I'm 6'2" - but I found them small considering their length.

Also, I don't understand the importance of large cabins, since all the time you spend in there is spent lying down anyway. I can stand up next to the closet in the entrance to my cabin, and I can sit up in bed. What else does one need? I place more importance in comfort elsewhere (my boat has a nice hard doghouse, for instance, that I now wouldn't sacrifice for anything).

It is a fact, though that long term cruisers spend more time stationary than moving and for many a large separate sleeping cabin with lots of storage, standing headroom and an ensuite loo is a must.

 

[jonic]

Did you find you used your aft cabin at anchorage? And sea beths on paassage?

Both, as the double berth in the aft cabin splits in the middle and you can run a lee cloth straight down the middle.

 

[steve yates]

It is a fact, though that long term cruisers spend more time stationary than moving and for many a large separate sleeping cabin with lots of storage, standing headroom and an ensuite loo is a must.

Yes, exactly this, without the ensuite loo. Idon’t even like them in houses, who shits in their bedroom? ( apart from boats below 20 ft anyway )

 

[Concerto]

Steve, I can tell you have never done a very long distance cruise. A friend who has sailed around the world on a Westerly without a skeg, found the biggest problem they had was fresh water. They had a watermaker, but that only produced a relatively small amount of water compared to their consumption. They could never carry sufficient in their tanks or in cans, besides many places the water was from untreated sources and contaminated their tanks. So this water was never used for drinking or anything to do with food preparation. The added problem was washing themselves and their clothes. Eventually all their clothes took on a grey hue. They were lucky once in the Pacific when he helped solve a problem on a larger yacht and payment was 1 load in their small onboard washing machine.

Other problems that have to be solved are additional storage for diesel and gas. Then a system of storing dried and tinned food. All paper labels and cardboard packaging had to be removed as frequently labels went missing, or the labels and carboard brought infestations of bugs onboard. Everything was stored in numbered airtight storage boxes and an accuarte record of quantity and where it was stored in the boat made things a lot easier to ensure they had enough food for each planned journey.

Forget about what might happen to the rudder, it is almost irrelevant. Finding a boat that is equipped to the standard required will be the cheapest option, not looking for what you think you want and upgrading it to what you will need. I know you said this thread was idle speculation, but others will read it and start thinking what you want is what they need. So stop misleading these folk and talk to those who have crossed oceans. That does not include me, but over the past half century I have certainly read a lot of what people have done and know sufficient to make a reasoned judgement on my own of what yacht I would need rather than advice generally from armchair sailor used to coastal sailing.

 

[steve yates]

I appreciate what you are saying, however just pointing out two things. First by focusing on what might happen when crossing oceans, you are ignoring all the thousands of boats with spade rudders, bolt on keels and all the other features that are supposed to make them unsuitable but still carry their owners and crews safely. There are more than enough examples available on blogs, youtubes and even among members of this forum to show what is possible to achieve with modern boats.

Focusing on what might happen and taking steps or making choices that are available to you to reduce risk seems an eminemtly sensible approach, it served me well over 40 years of mountaineering all over the world. Im simply making a choice to remove something that would always be at the back of my mind. ( If I had a transom hung rudder I would actually seriously ship with a spare on board if crossing an ocean, just seems sensible to me.)
Most of those thousands of boats are crossing the atlantic, the numbers drop considerably for other oceans in comparison. And the vast majority of those thousands will only do it once, the chances are high that its all going to go relatively ok for most. A bathtub can cross the atlantic, I still wouldnt choose one.
Look, I know you are a proponent of modern boats, but humour me, its my ideal boat, and as such, it will not have an unsupported spade rudder.

I dont care if there are thousands of boats out there with them, I think they are a bad idea, from a sailors pov. ( doesnt mean they are a bad idea from a boatbuilders pov)
There are millions of people eating mcdonalds, its mass produced, its modern, its production is technically light years ahead of a greasy burger van or someone with a barbie in his yard, but I think the stuff is overpriced crap, and I will not go and eat in one of their restuarants.

As for bolt on keels, did you miss that they were actually on my list? Long keel or cutaway was preferred, but bolted acceptable, if a longish horizontal shape, like the westerlys and moodys, as opposed to a vertical dagger type shape. There is a greater area fastened to the hull with the former but the prime reason is I would want a boat that heaves to beautifully.

 

[steve yates]

Steve, I can tell you have never done a very long distance cruise. A friend who has sailed around the world on a Westerly without a skeg, found the biggest problem they had was fresh water. They had a watermaker, but that only produced a relatively small amount of water compared to their consumption. They could never carry sufficient in their tanks or in cans, besides many places the water was from untreated sources and contaminated their tanks. So this water was never used for drinking or anything to do with food preparation. The added problem was washing themselves and their clothes. Eventually all their clothes took on a grey hue. They were lucky once in the Pacific when he helped solve a problem on a larger yacht and payment was 1 load in their small onboard washing machine.

Other problems that have to be solved are additional storage for diesel and gas. Then a system of storing dried and tinned food. All paper labels and cardboard packaging had to be removed as frequently labels went missing, or the labels and carboard brought infestations of bugs onboard. Everything was stored in numbered airtight storage boxes and an accuarte record of quantity and where it was stored in the boat made things a lot easier to ensure they had enough food for each planned journey.

Forget about what might happen to the rudder, it is almost irrelevant. Finding a boat that is equipped to the standard required will be the cheapest option, not looking for what you think you want and upgrading it to what you will need. I know you said this thread was idle speculation, but others will read it and start thinking what you want is what they need. So stop misleading these folk and talk to those who have crossed oceans. That does not include me, but over the past half century I have certainly read a lot of what people have done and know sufficient to make a reasoned judgement on my own of what yacht I would need rather than advice generally from armchair sailor used to coastal sailing.

I agree that finding one upgraded is cheaper than upgrading one. I’m not misleading anyone, they can do their own reading and thinking and make their own choices, more fool them if they believe everything written on a forum
It’s idle speculation at the moment, but it will be put into practice in the future. Good point about tankage though, I didnt put that on the list because I reckoned I can easily check it out to narrow down the models of boats that might meet my requirements, but its definitely something I would want.
Water and food storage is not something I would class as a problem, unless I got wrong of course its fairly self explanatory. I wouldn’t be provisioning for a crew, just two at most. And washing and faded clothes will not be an issue.

 

[steve yates]

So far, I think the island packet 35 is ticking the most boxes. Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts. An Ip38 may be better but too expensive, the 35 is a fantastic design within 35ft, mind you the moody 35 is pretty clever too.

 

[jonic]

So far, I think the island packet 35 is ticking the most boxes. Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts. An Ip38 may be better but too expensive, the 35 is a fantastic design within 35ft, mind you the moody 35 is pretty clever too.

Ironically that one you have linked to is Rotrax's old boat She was absolutely lovely.

 

[E39mad]

A Vancouver 36 (or later 38 classic) fits your criteria perfectly. Long fin keel encapsulated, full skeg hung rudder, cutter rig, proper aft cabin. Very seaworthy and sails well. Not many V36's built (about 10 or 12 irrc) before lengthened to a 38. They are massive inside for their size. Just look at the displacement and they are much closer to a Bowman 40 than a Rival/Rustler 36 (which the Vancouver 34 competed with)

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Amel Kirk 36 can't be far off what you're after. (EDIT, just seen budget)

 

[Minerva]

I appreciate your contributions tranona, but spade rudders are a complete no for me for a boat I might want to cross an ocean. You may think my prejudices are in the 70’s , thats my perogative,. I simply do not see the point of an unsupported spade rudder when I can have a safer alternative, like fixed to a skeg or transom hung.

[Against my better judgement I'm going to comment on Skeg / no Skeg discussions]

I have no beef in either the with or without Skeg camp. My boat has a 3/4 Skeg, but that fact is inconsequential in the run of things. However your statement above is making, and I presume unconsciously so, a big assumption.

You are assuming all Skegs' have been designed and built to withstand an "at speed" grounding and are significant structural elements to a yacht's hull. This is not necessarily true. Just because a hull has a Skeg, it doesn't necessarily follow that it will be a seriously strong laminated structure.

There was an interesting podcast with Bob Perry (designer of Tayana yachts - out and out serious cruising yachts ) on the "On the Wind" podcast. In that he discusses Skegs and no skegs and points out that he can design and build spade rudders to be far stronger than any "traditional" rudder. It could be worth a listen, he makes a compelling argument.

To re-itterate what I said at the beginning, I couldn't care less what criteria you set out for your own boat, it is after all a personal choice. However sometimes it's useful to have pointed out to us where we have made an unconscious assumption.

 

[rotrax]

Ironically that one you have linked to is Rotrax's old boat She was absolutely lovely.

I have just looked at her through the link - you are right, she was a smashing boat.

Far better than we were, or indeed are now.

We are both very happy with Jarrow Lily, she will keep us sailing for a few more years than an aft cockpit yacht. ?

 

[Concerto]

Focusing on what might happen and taking steps or making choices that are available to you to reduce risk seems an eminemtly sensible approach, it served me well over 40 years of mountaineering all over the world. Im simply making a choice to remove something that would always be at the back of my mind. ( If I had a transom hung rudder I would actually seriously ship with a spare on board if crossing an ocean, just seems sensible to me.)

Again on the reducing risks there are two things that should be considered.

Firstly rigging. Long distance sailing will certainly cause wear and damage to the rigging. So forget swaged and use a Norseman type fitting. Then carry some spare wire and extra toggles. Most wire will fracture near a terminal, but would be safe to use again once the end sections are removed, e.g. the forestay or backstay could be used as cap shrouds, etc. The toggles could be used as a spacer if the wire has become too short or use a short section of wire if neccessary.

The second big risk is lightening strikes. This would be certainly more likely than rudder damage. A lightening strike would take out all of you electronics and electrical systems.

A transom hung rudder would be ideal but as most boats are now kept in marinas, transom rudders are easier to sustain impact damage from other craft and is part of the overal length for marina charging. So very, very few yachts in the size you are looking at have transom hung rudders. My concern would be the amount of wear and tear to the wheel system and accessibilty to service and repair it. One long distance sailor I was chatting with lost his boat in rough weather off Brazil. His rudder jammed not due to the steering mechanism, but the flexible coupling on his propeller shaft came adrift and the shaft dropped aft and jammed the rudder at an angle and the boat just went round in circles. Due to the rough weather there was nothing he could do except abandon ship to his liferaft and was fortunately rescued.

 

[Tranona]

Most of those thousands of boats are crossing the atlantic, the numbers drop considerably for other oceans in comparison. And the vast majority of those thousands will only do it once, the chances are high that its all going to go relatively ok for most. A bathtub can cross the atlantic, I still wouldnt choose one.

Maybe you should look at the Pacific then, and at the many boats that are bought in the Med, often ex charter and then sailed to Australia and New Zealand, in some cases via Cape Horn.

There is a thing called confirmation bias - people look for what confirms their previously held views. So if you want to find evidence that spade rudders break off that is what you find, but in doing so you miss all the boats fitted with spade rudders that never have problems. Much of the received wisdom of what is suitable for ocean voyaging in this country is founded in the early days when boats used were (inevitably) the "traditional" type and this gets reinforced over the years in peoples' minds, despite the evidence that such boats are increasingly in a minority. If those were the only "safe" types then how do all the others survive? Sailors from other countries who don't have this collective background tend not to have this approach and are quite happy to embrace modern design trends. If the choice was limited to only certain types of boats, the number of people going cruising would fall dramatically. Equally if it was essential to have that type of boat, designers and builders would be rushing to meet the demand. The reality is, that just as in your case, and many like you there is a good match between older type boats and the budget you have available so you don't have to (or can't) venture out of your comfort zone.

This is not a criticism, but an observation as I went through exactly the same process over 20 years ago. Started with the fixed view not dissimilar to yours and set out to buy a Moody type boat for our long term cruising plans. However became somewhat depressed by the condition of relatively new boats so looked at and tried newer modern boats. This was a revelation, primarily in the quality of the design and construction, even if the finish was sometimes a bit lacking. So I bought one and over the 15 years I owned it and despite its hard life did everything I expected with minimal trouble. You will find many like me which is unsurprising because if you wanted to buy a decent size cruising boat new or nearly new in the last 20 years or so you don't have a choice. You don't hear much from such people, many of whom have owned older style boats, because they just get on with it. If pressed few would consider going back despite the often happy memories from the past.