Is there a perfect boat for me?

[doug748]

Focusing on what might happen and taking steps or making choices that are available to you to reduce risk seems an eminemtly sensible approach, it served me well over 40 years of mountaineering all over the world. Im simply making a choice to remove something that would always be at the back of my mind. ( If I had a transom hung rudder I would actually seriously ship with a spare on board if crossing an ocean, just seems sensible to me.).....................

You should know by now Steve that you are not allowed to have your own requirements in these matters without the Forum Fundamentalists getting on the case.

As you know, two salient things about fin and skeg designs are that you are more likely to rig a usable jury rudder and, in the worst case, less likely to have to abandon a tow. The boat retains some directional stability even with the rudder gone. The recent abandonments in the Atlantic point this up to us.
So adding up all the other advantages and subtracting the disadvantages, I think talking down your preferences is silly; It's a symptom of something but I am not quite sure what.


On a point of order; would you accept a partial skeg or is it nothing less than the full Monty?

.

 

[KompetentKrew]

There was an interesting podcast with Bob Perry (designer of Tayana yachts - out and out serious cruising yachts ) on the "On the Wind" podcast. In that he discusses Skegs and no skegs and points out that he can design and build spade rudders to be far stronger than any "traditional" rudder. It could be worth a listen, he makes a compelling argument.

Perry is the idol of North Americans who share your view of seaworthiness, by the way, @steve yates.

There is an American religion around his classic designs - look up the Tayana 37, the Valiant 40, Ta Shing Tashiba 36, Baba 30 & 40, and Panda 40.

 

[steve yates]

You should know by now Steve that you are not allowed to have your own requirements in these matters without the Forum Fundamentalists getting on the case.

As you know, two salient things about fin and skeg designs are that you are more likely to rig a usable jury rudder and, in the worst case, less likely to have to abandon a tow. The boat retains some directional stability even with the rudder gone. The recent abandonments in the Atlantic point this up to us.
So adding up all the other advantages and subtracting the disadvantages, I think talking down your preferences is silly; It's a symptom of something but I am not quite sure what.


On a point of order; would you accept a partial skeg or is it nothing less than the full Monty?

.

On that point of order, a partial skeg is acceptable.

 

[steve yates]

Maybe you should look at the Pacific then, and at the many boats that are bought in the Med, often ex charter and then sailed to Australia and New Zealand, in some cases via Cape Horn.

There is a thing called confirmation bias - people look for what confirms their previously held views. So if you want to find evidence that spade rudders break off that is what you find, but in doing so you miss all the boats fitted with spade rudders that never have problems. Much of the received wisdom of what is suitable for ocean voyaging in this country is founded in the early days when boats used were (inevitably) the "traditional" type and this gets reinforced over the years in peoples' minds, despite the evidence that such boats are increasingly in a minority. If those were the only "safe" types then how do all the others survive? Sailors from other countries who don't have this collective background tend not to have this approach and are quite happy to embrace modern design trends. If the choice was limited to only certain types of boats, the number of people going cruising would fall dramatically. Equally if it was essential to have that type of boat, designers and builders would be rushing to meet the demand. The reality is, that just as in your case, and many like you there is a good match between older type boats and the budget you have available so you don't have to (or can't) venture out of your comfort zone.

This is not a criticism, but an observation as I went through exactly the same process over 20 years ago. Started with the fixed view not dissimilar to yours and set out to buy a Moody type boat for our long term cruising plans. However became somewhat depressed by the condition of relatively new boats so looked at and tried newer modern boats. This was a revelation, primarily in the quality of the design and construction, even if the finish was sometimes a bit lacking. So I bought one and over the 15 years I owned it and despite its hard life did everything I expected with minimal trouble. You will find many like me which is unsurprising because if you wanted to buy a decent size cruising boat new or nearly new in the last 20 years or so you don't have a choice. You don't hear much from such people, many of whom have owned older style boats, because they just get on with it. If pressed few would consider going back despite the often happy memories from the past.

Maybe i will change my mind in the future, who knows, but just to put this to bed and go back to actual boats that fit MY current criteria, I have never said that modern awb's cannot cross oceans, or do not cross oceans. I know they do! Just because they do does not convince ME they are the best boats for the job, see my Mcdonalds example. And just because the majority of boats are built or designed in a certain way, does not mean they are built or designed in the most seaworthy way.

If I had the choice of a modern awb, or no boat at all, I would jump at the modern one. I have a wide choice though, so I dont have to have one that does not inspire me or fill me with confidence.
In my mind, and i have thought about this a lot, it makes no sense to have an unsupported spade rudder, which IF it failed would sink the boat, when I can have a supported rudder that if it failed, would not sink the boat.

Also in my mind, I can see no reason at all to cross an ocean in a boat that cannot heave to safely and well when i can CHOOSE a boat which does this beautifully. I may only NEED this that one time, but I'm sure I'll be bloody glad that I can if that time comes.

I am aware I am in the minority, but thats ok.

Now, these boats .....

 

[Frogmogman]

That site doesn’t seem to be very clear about its status? DD has plenty of prejudices, but it would appear that some of his writing is encouraged, perhaps sponsored, by the manufacturer of a certain brand of yachts - who get quite a few mentions on this site.
It would be good to know if this is sponsored advertorial.

That was what I wondered when I watched a video in which DD interviewed the proprietor of Kraken Yachts about the merits of his boat. I felt at the time that an objective journalist would have challenged some of Dick Beaumont’s assertions, which he completely failed to do.

From the link you have posted, it would appear that they are in bed together. Tout s’explique.

 

[Concerto]

In my mind, and i have thought about this a lot, it makes no sense to have an unsupported spade rudder, which IF it failed would sink the boat, when I can have a supported rudder that if it failed, would not sink the boat.

Not every failed spade rudder has sunk every boat (see repprts on whale attacks off Portugal on rudders). That is too much of a broad comment from a biased point of view. Perhaps including yachts that do not have a contra moulding extending to the rudder post should be included in your criteria. Then before you leave, the area surrounding the rudder post could be easily strenthened to ensure the hull could not be breached in the event of a failure.

On the same point of strengthening the hull, then you should reinforce the bow section just in case you sail into a floating container or ice berg. But both of those could also damage any type of keel, so better strengthen that as well.

By now the boat has become so heavy with all the extra items required as back ups, besides the extra equipment for extended cruising, and then the water, diesel and gas, plus all the food. The boat now float several inches lower in the water, reducing freeboard, and makes it a lot slower whilst sailing. So now in lighter winds you cannot sail, so have to motor long distances, so you will now need to carry even more diesel. You now need an even bigger boat.

As this is all hypothetical, I have just taken it a stage further. As has been said many times before, a boat is a compromise. There is no perfect boat, but you can find one that you are happy with the compromises.

 

[doug748]

On that point of order, a partial skeg is acceptable.

Staring us all in the face ( has anyone already mentioned?) I claim my prize

.........................Starlight 35:




I guess we can argue if that is a longish keel or not, if the boat will heave to or not and if it's suitable for offshore or not. Any owners care to comment?

However, less than 5ft draught and the ability to dry out easily is a great thing for long term travellers and there are a good number of examples about to choose from. Deep keel available

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A Vancouver 36 (or later 38 classic) fits your criteria perfectly. Long fin keel encapsulated, full skeg hung rudder, cutter rig, proper aft cabin. Very seaworthy and sails well. Not many V36's built (about 10 or 12 irrc) before lengthened to a 38. They are massive inside for their size. Just look at the displacement and they are much closer to a Bowman 40 than a Rival/Rustler 36 (which the Vancouver 34 competed with)

I found the 38 a disappointment after sailing a 36 ( Didn't own either ) The 38 seemed a bit of a sluggard but for me the 36 was the best of the UK Vancouver range by a mile. I used to have friendly races with a Rustler 36 in my V34 and over 40 miles I would always be between a half to an hour in front at the end.

 

[Supertramp]

Maybe i will change my mind in the future, who knows, but just to put this to bed and go back to actual boats that fit MY current criteria, I have never said that modern awb's cannot cross oceans, or do not cross oceans. I know they do! Just because they do does not convince ME they are the best boats for the job, see my Mcdonalds example. And just because the majority of boats are built or designed in a certain way, does not mean they are built or designed in the most seaworthy way.

If I had the choice of a modern awb, or no boat at all, I would jump at the modern one. I have a wide choice though, so I dont have to have one that does not inspire me or fill me with confidence.
In my mind, and i have thought about this a lot, it makes no sense to have an unsupported spade rudder, which IF it failed would sink the boat, when I can have a supported rudder that if it failed, would not sink the boat.

Also in my mind, I can see no reason at all to cross an ocean in a boat that cannot heave to safely and well when i can CHOOSE a boat which does this beautifully. I may only NEED this that one time, but I'm sure I'll be bloody glad that I can if that time comes.

I am aware I am in the minority, but thats ok.

Now, these boats .....

I started with a very similar set of requirements to yours and rapidly discovered how hard it was to tick all the boxes. However I think you are on the right track and as others have said you might have to compromise in some areas! I settled for a Cromarty 36 which ticked a lot of boxes but most importantly "felt right".

Long encapsulated keel (and fully attached rudder) mean easy heaving to and self steering without autopilot.

Ketch rig with hank on slutter style detachable forestay means easy sail handling and a wide choice for wind conditions.

Two proper, standing headroom sleeping cabins. Two toilets (meaning one becomes a storeroom often), proper galley and a pilothouse which is perfect for chartwork, keeping watch and seeing where you are while it rains and blows outside.

Walk round decks means no hopping in and out of the cockpit which is a massive plus singlehanded.

A foredeck which can cope with two sets of anchor rode plus a stowed sail.

Good build quality with accessible fittings and fastenings and a reassuring solidity.

She is very similar in hull design to Rayners old Atlantic and Barbary ketches but was designed in the 80s by the Fisher design team of Wyatt and Freeman.

And the negatives?

Don't try to point closer than 45 to 50 degrees (but sailing is fine in light winds), going astern is a nightmare, various fittings need replaced or updated after 30 years, not certain I would cross Northern or Southern oceans with big windows. And you could probably find a cheaper option!

If I was still searching I would be looking at Vancouver 34PH, IP35, Nauticat 32/35, Fisher 34. Moody 35/37, Westerly 36/38. But if there is one feature I would hate to lose its the ketch rig.

 

[robmcg]

Maybe i will change my mind in the future, who knows, but just to put this to bed and go back to actual boats that fit MY current criteria, I have never said that modern awb's cannot cross oceans, or do not cross oceans. I know they do! Just because they do does not convince ME they are the best boats for the job, see my Mcdonalds example. And just because the majority of boats are built or designed in a certain way, does not mean they are built or designed in the most seaworthy way.

If I had the choice of a modern awb, or no boat at all, I would jump at the modern one. I have a wide choice though, so I dont have to have one that does not inspire me or fill me with confidence.
In my mind, and i have thought about this a lot, it makes no sense to have an unsupported spade rudder, which IF it failed would sink the boat, when I can have a supported rudder that if it failed, would not sink the boat.

Also in my mind, I can see no reason at all to cross an ocean in a boat that cannot heave to safely and well when i can CHOOSE a boat which does this beautifully. I may only NEED this that one time, but I'm sure I'll be bloody glad that I can if that time comes.

I am aware I am in the minority, but thats ok.

Now, these boats .....

Good summary of your thought process. A boat that fits the majority of your requirements will present itself as it is hardly a unicorn wish list. Interestingly, you can argue that 'confirmation bias' touted by some responders on here cuts both ways - it's a newer boat, newer design therefore it must be better ?. There is a subtle but very real difference between capable of crossing oceans and designed to cross oceans.

 

[steve yates]

Concerto, a whale munching on a rudder of any type will damage it, not rip the whole structure off the boat. The damage it will do is likely to bne exactly the same regardless of whather it is a spade/transom or skeghung rudder.
For the last time, I dont want a spade rudder and I feel no need to compromise about a spade rudder! Nothing said on here will ever remove that nagging feeling of vulnerability that would be in the back of my mind if I went bluewater cruising; but having a boat without a spade rudder would. QED.
Thankfully, there are other options available. The choice is not nearly as wide, hence the reason for this post. I am seeing some excellent suggestions, thanks folks, and hoping to see more.

The aft cabin/double quarterberth choice has been mentioned a couple of times, if it was just me, as it would be on ocean crossing trips, a double starboard quarter berth would be fine. But as my wife would be sailing with me and living on the boat in port or on the hook, then a proper aft cabin it has to be And to be honest, I can really see the attraction. I already have two boats that are like various degrees of camping when living aboard, it would be nice to have such luxury.

 

[steve yates]

I started with a very similar set of requirements to yours and rapidly discovered how hard it was to tick all the boxes. However I think you are on the right track and as others have said you might have to compromise in some areas! I settled for a Cromarty 36 which ticked a lot of boxes but most importantly "felt right".

Long encapsulated keel (and fully attached rudder) mean easy heaving to and self steering without autopilot.

Ketch rig with hank on slutter style detachable forestay means easy sail handling and a wide choice for wind conditions.

Two proper, standing headroom sleeping cabins. Two toilets (meaning one becomes a storeroom often), proper galley and a pilothouse which is perfect for chartwork, keeping watch and seeing where you are while it rains and blows outside.

Walk round decks means no hopping in and out of the cockpit which is a massive plus singlehanded.

A foredeck which can cope with two sets of anchor rode plus a stowed sail.

Good build quality with accessible fittings and fastenings and a reassuring solidity.

She is very similar in hull design to Rayners old Atlantic and Barbary ketches but was designed in the 80s by the Fisher design team of Wyatt and Freeman.

And the negatives?

Don't try to point closer than 45 to 50 degrees (but sailing is fine in light winds), going astern is a nightmare, various fittings need replaced or updated after 30 years, not certain I would cross Northern or Southern oceans with big windows. And you could probably find a cheaper option!

If I was still searching I would be looking at Vancouver 34PH, IP35, Nauticat 32/35, Fisher 34. Moody 35/37, Westerly 36/38. But if there is one feature I would hate to lose its the ketch rig.

I do love a ketch rig, and the addition of a detachable forestay for a slutter rig would have me drooling . Damn the sail costs, just look at that lovely spread of canvas

 

[SaltyC]

My HR34 fills most of the requirements, even if it has a fin and spade. The spade rudder and stock are pretty sturdy compared to other marques and I see no reason to be concerned about the keel, though I have the slightly shallower option. The HR 36 fails on having the heads forward, though it is a good sea boat and one I would go anywhere in.

Agree totally, ticks most boxes. Originally thought of 31 but too small for final criteria, 36 meets all but heads, 34 ticks all but spade rudder. All sail exceptionally well with a comfortable motion at sea.

 

[KompetentKrew]

In my mind, and i have thought about this a lot, it makes no sense to have an unsupported spade rudder, which IF it failed would sink the boat, when I can have a supported rudder that if it failed, would not sink the boat.

What!? I'm far more familiar with my own boat than others, so have no idea how common this is, but losing the rudder would definitely not sink my boat.

 

[westhinder]

Staring us all in the face ( has anyone already mentioned?) I claim my prize

.........................Starlight 35:

View attachment 128873


I guess we can argue if that is a longish keel or not, if the boat will heave to or not and if it's suitable for offshore or not. Any owners care to comment?

However, less than 5ft draught and the ability to dry out easily is a great thing for long term travellers and there are a good number of examples about to choose from. Deep keel available

I have refrained from mentioning the Starlight as I am obviously biased, but I can confirm that it will heave to beautifully and is a very capable sailboat. It has a sturdy partial skeg and a lead keel bolted to a deep sump. If the budget allows, always choose the 39 over the 35, not only is it faster but it has more stowage, which is vital if you want to cross oceans. Water tankage needs to be looked at, I have 200 litres which is fine for a week but not much more. It can be solved, A Dutch couple did a long circumnavigation in a 39 and they were very pleased with the boat.
Frankly, I think the Starlight is in a different league to many of the boats from the 70s or 80s mentioned so far.

 

[ashtead]

I recently watched a utube advert for the sale of an IP out of Florida (on the sailing doodles utube) which had completed a global trip. Certainly an IP would be my choice if long distance cruising but just be mindful of their handling in marina,we had one berthing in Haslar helmed by a US owner who had sailed up from med and was crossing home - great boat but he did seem given his undoubted logged miles have some challenges when berthing we thought. I recall they were sold in Uk by Opal marine and we in our somewhat cheaper Bav went on a rally -they certainly looked the part but seemed rather slow as we left Solent until the wind piped up to Poole . If I was crossing on ARCI can see the attraction of an IP if that is desired keel and the plan but many others make it to Rodney Bay.

 

[Kelpie]

I've only skimmed the thread but I don't think a Warrior 38 or 40 has been suggested yet. They don't all have aft heads, but the one we viewed did. Sturdy boats, masses of deck space. Twin quarter cabins so you don't have the aft 'stateroom' but the forecabin is very nice. Various layouts were offered.
They do have a saildrive which I suspect may not be your ideal choice, but let's not open that particular can of worms.

 

[E39mad]

I found the 38 a disappointment after sailing a 36 ( Didn't own either ) The 38 seemed a bit of a sluggard but for me the 36 was the best of the UK Vancouver range by a mile. I used to have friendly races with a Rustler 36 in my V34 and over 40 miles I would always be between a half to an hour in front at the end.

The Vancouver 36 is a massively underrated and often overlooked boat. Not really a "true" Vancouver as not designed by Robert Harris but Tony Taylor who was the ex MD of a certain Camper and Nicholsons. Some therefore see is as the modern successor to a Nicholson 35. Northshore had far too many yachts to show everyone at a Boat Show so the V36 was rarely seen. They seem to stay in ownership for long periods of time.

Warrior 38/40 is a good shout. They did a twin screw version with a deck saloon called a Voyager 40. Again not many built but a Sovereign 40 may suit. A Dawn 39 would also be worth a look.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes I could never find a 36 for sale when I was looking but had several sails on one Not familiar at all with the warriors but know the Dawn and as I said when someone recommended the Contessa 38, look for a Dawn 39 they sail well and look absolutely stunning but are as rare as rocking horse poo.
If you class Vancouvers as only Robert Harris designs isn't the only true one the V27? perhaps you could stretch it to the 28 (geddit?) or even the 32 and 34 but they weren't Harris designs as such.

 

[Goldie]

I do love a ketch rig, and the addition of a detachable forestay for a slutter rig would have me drooling . Damn the sail costs, just look at that lovely spread of canvas

If you want to add to the effect, get a mizzen staysail too. Easily handled and pulls like a train from about 60° off the wind. Oh so pretty too.