Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?

[pmagowan]

Colregs apply whenever the boat is making way.

So is the pontoon stand on when you are motoring but give way when you are sailing? Perhaps if the harbour master is not about he should show the shapes for a pontoon not under command and restricted in its ability to manoeuvre!

 

[JumbleDuck]

So, to take this even further, you're approaching a berth under engine (mainsail flapping) and knock it into neutral ready to go into astern to stop. Are you saying the boat isn't propelled by machinery at that point?

It's not being propelled by machinery so, no, it's not being propelled by machinery.

 

[pmagowan]

The colregs (among other things) state what you should do if a risk of collision exists. You can not change your status during this state of affairs. If you start as the stand on boat then you remain it and vice versa. Starting your engine or putting it into gear can be part of the action you take to avoid collision but it should be done in agreement to the rules. I.e. Any avoiding action of the stand on boat should only be taken at such time as it is clear the give way boat has failed to take sufficient action (I paraphrase as I am on an iPhone but you can look it up). Needless to say, ignoring colregs and taking action to try to change your status an make manoeuvres at the wrong time is what causes the problems.

 

[jerrytug]

Colregs apply whenever the boat is making way.

Pretty please, read the bleeding book.

 

[Wandering Star]

I haven't read the whole thread but I've always taken the view if I fire up the engine then I'm effectively a mobo and mobo rules apply. What's to stop a true mobo knocking his transmission into neutral and claiming he was sailing?

 

[l'escargot]

I haven't read the whole thread but I've always taken the view if I fire up the engine then I'm effectively a mobo and mobo rules apply. What's to stop a true mobo knocking his transmission into neutral and claiming he was sailing?

If you are still sailing how do you effectively become a mobo, you are still doing something a mobo can't do?

The fact that he doesn't have any sails and can't be "under sail" perhaps?

 

[onesea]

Then clearly you don't but you seem to have some difficulty accepting it. Rule 25 is totally unambiguous in that it says that a cone must be hoisted "...when also being propelled by machinery". A vessel complying with ColRegs will not be showing a cone if it is sailing with it's engine running but not propelling the boat.

I think the point I am trying to make you are missing a bit like on the road I will slow to let some one out of a side road, flash to allow a car to pull out in front of me on a motorway etc good manners on the road just like good manners at sea...

From my experience around the Solent 95% are great full and smile and wave, the other 5% normally have to go out of there way to make a point that I was wrong to try and make life more pleasant/ easier for them...

Each to there own...

 

[l'escargot]

I think the point I am trying to make you are missing a bit like on the road I will slow to let some one out of a side road, flash to allow a car to pull out in front of me on a motorway etc good manners on the road just like good manners at sea...

From my experience around the Solent 95% are great full and smile and wave, the other 5% normally have to go out of there way to make a point that I was wrong to try and make life more pleasant/ easier for them...

Each to there own...

I think you are muddling two different points - letting a car out from a side junction doesn't change the status of a "Give Way" sign - you can obviously choose to take considerate action with regards to other vessels which is contrary to the rules as long as it doesn't create misunderstandings between both parties, and the rules allow for that, but such actions don't change the rules or any definitions within them, they are a deviation from then.

 

[onesea]

I think you are muddling two different points - letting a car out from a side junction doesn't change the status of a "Give Way" sign - you can obviously choose to take considerate action with regards to other vessels which is contrary to the rules as long as it doesn't create misunderstandings between both parties, and the rules allow for that, but such actions don't change the rules or any definitions within them, they are a deviation from then.

Not muddling anything if you read my first port on this thread....
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?407872-Is-a-sailing-boat-with-its-engine-on-but-not-in-gear-a-power-boat&p=4926305#post4926305

 

[pmagowan]

Not muddling anything if you read my first port on this thread....
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ot-in-gear-a-power-boat&p=4926305#post4926305

Are you simply saying that you won't stand on as is your obligation under colregs where appropriate.

 

[l'escargot]

Not muddling anything if you read my first port on this thread....
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?407872-Is-a-sailing-boat-with-its-engine-on-but-not-in-gear-a-power-boat&p=4926305#post4926305

I think that was the start of the muddling, it is nothing to do with interfering with a sailing boat when your engine is running. The actions you choose to take in your boat with the engine running whilst you are sailing can be totally different to your obligations under the ColRegs towards another boat sailing with their engine running. You can choose to sail around all day making your self the give way vessel to motorboats and no one will stop you, it might confuse some people which perhaps isn't a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the rules require motorboats to give way to sailing boats in many situations.

The original question was: "Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?" Simply a question on a definition contained within the rules. The general consensus on this thread seems to be that it isn't.

But hey ho, as I said before: I'm always amazed at the number of people who think they can reinterpret ColRegs and pick and choose the ones the ones they want to comply with - probably often leaving a trail of havoc behind them. There's been people on here that have argued that sailing boats should turn and go in the opposite direction every time they meet a ship so I don't get surprised by much.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Then clearly you don't but you seem to have some difficulty accepting it. Rule 25 is totally unambiguous in that it says that a cone must be hoisted "...when also being propelled by machinery". A vessel complying with ColRegs will not be showing a cone if it is sailing with it's engine running but not propelling the boat.

Well, if we're being pedantic, where exactly in the IRPCS does it say that a boat must not hoist a cone in these circumstances?

 

[jerrytug]

Well, if we're being pedantic, where exactly in the IRPCS does it say that a boat must not hoist a cone in these circumstances?

It says it in the same place where it says, ' do not make the sound signals for fog on a lovely clear day', and ' do not sound five or more short blasts when you have no doubt about another vessel's intentions'.

 

[l'escargot]

Well, if we're being pedantic, where exactly in the IRPCS does it say that a boat must not hoist a cone in these circumstances?

I don't agree that it is pedantic, I said unambiguous.

You asked that before. I think it's a bit like the highway code doesn't say you mustn't use your indicators when you don't intend turning. It only says you should use them when turning - there is generally a presumption of a certain level of intelligence in implementing the rules.

The fact that you must hoist the cone when you use your propelling machinery infers that you don't have it hoisted at any other time. I don't think there is any other rule that says that you must hoist it in any other circumstances. So even though there is no distinct prohibition, it is reasonable to think that there is no implied permission/requirement to do so in circumstances other than motorsailing either.

 

[Tempus]

There's been people on here that have argued that sailing boats should turn and go in the opposite direction every time they meet a ship so I don't get surprised by much.

I've never seen those posts, I have seen those suggesting that they don't enforce their stand-on rights too aggressively against an oil tanker. However there have been people on here also who seem to believe that any sailing boat not showing a cone must be sailing, when the most casual look out of your window on the Isle of Wight would show that not to be the case. Mine and other's point is that the Col Regs are not actually adhered to in the letter of the law at all time, particularly in busy leisure filled water ways. Therefore common sense and courtesy tends to trump an "I'm right and I'll see you in court" interpretation of the rules. I apply common sense and don't leave a "trail of havoc" behind me.

 

[bbg]

Well, if we're being pedantic, where exactly in the IRPCS does it say that a boat must not hoist a cone in these circumstances?

I haven't checked but I suspect it doesn't say it explicitly. And hoisting a cone without motoring will not be a problem, unless it leads to a collision. In which case I am fairly certain the judge will have a lot of sympathy for the other vessel when its master says he was entitled to rely on your display of the cone to conclude you were a PDV and not a sailing vessel.

 

[l'escargot]

I've never seen those posts, I have seen those suggesting that they don't enforce their stand-on rights too aggressively against an oil tanker. However there have been people on here also who seem to believe that any sailing boat not showing a cone must be sailing, when the most casual look out of your window on the Isle of Wight would show that not to be the case. Mine and other's point is that the Col Regs are not actually adhered to in the letter of the law at all time, particularly in busy leisure filled water ways. Therefore common sense and courtesy tends to trump an "I'm right and I'll see you in court" interpretation of the rules. I apply common sense and don't leave a "trail of havoc" behind me.

Oh, they've been there over the years I can assure you, usually from people saying it is "common sense".

You didn't see where I said this either: "...you can obviously choose to take considerate action with regards to other vessels which is contrary to the rules as long as it doesn't create misunderstandings between both parties, and the rules allow for that, but such actions don't change the rules or any definitions within them, they are a deviation from then." .

Even though I can't actually see any boats at all from my window in Newport, I think the only arguments I have seen on here (including this thread) about boats not showing cones must be sailing, is people saying that in the absence of a signal otherwise, there is an obligation under the rules for them to be treated as if they are sailing - not that they are sailing. Probably a subtle difference.

I agree that ColRegs aren't complied with all the time that is why I made my comment about "...people who think they can reinterpret ColRegs and pick and choose the ones the ones they want to comply with" - something which you appear to be supporting?

The rules are there to prevent collisions at the end of the day. If people have taken other actions so that a risk of collision hasn't developed all well and good. But when the crunch comes and there is a very real and imminent risk of collision, as I said on another thread "One persons common sense is another persons unpredictability", and the one thing needed to avoid a collision is predictability. In the absence of telepathy, common sense can very often be just applying the rules so everyone knows what is going on. If you get involved in a collision and you have disregarded the rules, a defence that you were using "common sense" instead probably won't get you very far. I don't think common sense will ever trump the rules if you have a collision - the rules are there to prevent collisions by definition, you will certainly be asked why you didn't use them.

 

[Tempus]

boats not showing cones must be sailing, ...there is an obligation under the rules for them to be treated as if they are sailing - not that they are sailing. Probably a subtle difference.

I wouldn't argue with most of that and I'm not supporting a menu approach to the rules either, as you say, when it comes to the crunch the rules need to be applied. However I'm observing that in busy leisure areas courtesy usually trumps blind adherence. I personally think that insisting that running your engine whilst sailing and then expecting all others to treat you as a sailing vessel is discourteous.

With your quote above and given the prevalence of motor sailors in the Solent not showing cones I have some sympathy with the Mobo who kicked off this thread. I accept it's not in the rules but most sailors and Mobos would assume that just the mainsail hoisted = motorsailing, and would behave accordingly. I accept that if push came to shove they'd be wrong, but it seems a convention has grown up around it. The issues after all only really arise when a sailing boat on port has to tack to avoid such a vessel. I still stand by my statement that I'd tack to avoid them, but be annoyed if I then saw their engine running.

 

[l'escargot]

I wouldn't argue with most of that and I'm not supporting a menu approach to the rules either, as you say, when it comes to the crunch the rules need to be applied. However I'm observing that in busy leisure areas courtesy usually trumps blind adherence. I personally think that insisting that running your engine whilst sailing and then expecting all others to treat you as a sailing vessel is discourteous.

With your quote above and given the prevalence of motor sailors in the Solent not showing cones I have some sympathy with the Mobo who kicked off this thread. I accept it's not in the rules but most sailors and Mobos would assume that just the mainsail hoisted = motorsailing, and would behave accordingly. I accept that if push came to shove they'd be wrong, but it seems a convention has grown up around it. The issues after all only really arise when a sailing boat on port has to tack to avoid such a vessel. I still stand by my statement that I'd tack to avoid them, but be annoyed if I then saw their engine running.

I think we are talking about two somewhat different situations.

I don't have a problem with a boat with no headsail out, mainsail sheeted hard in and heading straight into the wind, being treated as someone motorsailing who hasn't bothered to put up a cone - wrong in regards to ColRegs but no big issue. In most cases they would probably expect to be treated as a motoring boat too.

What I would have a problem with is someone treating me as a motoring boat if I was sailing off the wind, with sails clearly drawing and providing propulsion but for whatever reason I had my engine ticking over out of gear and under no obligation to display a cone. I believe they would be wrong in regards to ColRegs too - I wouldn't be.

 

[Tempus]

Agreed, we are talking about 2 different situations, and in your situation I'm sure they'd always treat you as sailing as they wouldn't see the engine until after they've altered course.

But here's a situation we find ourselves in most weekends.
Sailing into Chichester, on port (W wind) and somewhat constrained by draft.
Boat head-on with sails up coming the other way, hogging the centre of the channel. We always give way as we're on Port, often turning to Port as as there is very dodgy depth to Stbd (and the Port side of the channel coming in is more clearly marked)
At least 1/3rd of the time you wave to the boat coming out and then look back and see the engine is at on and usually driving. However they've just pressed on regardless.
Don't know the answer (officially a cone, but practically?) but it's annoying and potentially dangerous as there is genuine confusion. Personally we only ever put the headsail out if we're sailing (gives the engine something to power on too). I suspect the original Mobo question arose out of annoyance / confusion at those type of instances than having to give way to a yacht sailing full and bye with the engine ticking over.