Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?

[l'escargot]

If that were true Rule 35 would not make sense. It describes the sound signal to be made in restricted visibility by "A power-driven vessel underway but stopped and making no way though the water." According to you this state of affairs could not exist.

That's the danger of taking rules in isolation, they need to be read in conjunction with each other. Interpreting it your way, in isolation, makes every sailing boat fitted with an engine a power driven vessel whether the propelling gear is in use or not. Clearly that isn't the case. Rule 3 gives the definitive definition of what a power driven vessel is.

 

[onesea]

If you disagree, you must be saying that saying a boat with it's anchor down with it's motor running in neutral isn't anchored, it's motoring. Sorry that's just plain daft.

I am not saying that, it was you who tried to compare a sailing boat with an anchored vessel. The status of the engine by word of the rule is not that relevant its the status of the shapes...

As I said for me good seamanship in most cases would make the point mute... When sailing and another boat with engine running forces me to tack Jybe alter course into stronger current or what ever, for the sake of a few revs on the engine I cannot help but to think what a....... Sorry Rule 2 the practices of ordinary seaman, maybe that does not include idiot yachties....

Sorry that just doesn't make an sense to me - if I do the same as you and get in the way of his ship he will think I'm an idiot WAFI? I don't think I have suggested getting in the way of anyones ship, only to comply with ColRegs. A master mariner who thinks someone is an idiot WAFI for doing that isn't a very good master mariner

What it seems from your mails is even though your engine is running and available you will expect ships to keep out of his way, particularly in coastal waters/ approaching pilotage where he has met most WAFI's. That's what I think he was calling daft...

 

[l'escargot]

I am not saying that,

So you are agreeing with me then

it was you who tried to compare a sailing boat with an anchored vessel. The status of the engine by word of the rule is not that relevant its the status of the shapes...

No I was comparing a motor boat and a sailing boat in two separate situations with their engine running. So if someone has forgotten to take their anchor ball down and is heading towards you at 8 knots, you are going to treat them as an anchored boat?

As I said for me good seamanship in most cases would make the point mute... When sailing and another boat with engine running forces me to tack Jybe alter course into stronger current or what ever, for the sake of a few revs on the engine I cannot help but to think what a....... Sorry Rule 2 the practices of ordinary seaman, maybe that does not include idiot yachties....

So you expect someone else sailing to to stop sailing and engage their engine and start motoring so you don't have to take the required action under ColRegs? I don't think that is a reasonable expectation - or an "ordinary practice if seamen".

What it seems from your mails is even though your engine is running and available you will expect ships to keep out of his way, particularly in coastal waters/ approaching pilotage where he has met most WAFI's. That's what I think he was calling daft...

I don't expect ships to get out of the way, only expect ships to comply with ColRegs, just as I expect to myself. My engine controls are at the helm so my engine is always available. I can start my engine and motor in about 3 seconds, probably quicker than some people get their running engine into gear. I don't see any reason, when I am sailing, to use my engine and motor instead every time I see another boat, just so they can treat me as a motorboat instead of a sailing boat because the can't be bothered to follow ColRegs.

Anyway that's all a side show. To get back on to the OP are you saying that a boat sailing with it's engine running, but not propelling the boat, should be treated as a motorboat for the purposes of ColRegs?

 

[jimbaerselman]

Situation 1. Sailboat has mainsail up, is running downwind, engine off, and a cone hoisted. Do sail vs sail regulations apply - windward boat etc?

Situation 2. Sailboat crossing the channel at night, under full sail, motor off, switches on his steaming (!) light as he approaches the first lane of the TSS. What message is he sending to oncoming vessels?

Answer those two, and you'll realise that any discussion about whether or not a motor is propelling the boat, or whether it's easy or difficult to manouevre under sail, is quite irrelevant.

 

[l'escargot]

Situation 1. Sailboat has mainsail up, is running downwind, engine off, and a cone hoisted. Do sail vs sail regulations apply - windward boat etc?

Situation 2. Sailboat crossing the channel at night, under full sail, motor off, switches on his steaming (!) light as he approaches the first lane of the TSS. What message is he sending to oncoming vessels?

Answer those two, and you'll realise that any discussion about whether or not a motor is propelling the boat, or whether it's easy or difficult to manouevre under sail, is quite irrelevant.

Both your examples are breaching ColRegs, just like my sailing boat coming towards you at 8 knots with his anchor ball up. Would you still treat him as anchored?

The discussion is actually about a definition of a sailing boat with it's engine running but not providing propulsion, not how you treat any isolated examples you may come up with that are behaving contrary to the rules. So I don't agree the discussion is irrelevant. I'd ask you the same question as I asked onesea at the end of my last post.

 

[jerrytug]

Situation 1. Sailboat has mainsail up, is running downwind, engine off, and a cone hoisted. Do sail vs sail regulations apply - windward boat etc?

Situation 2. Sailboat crossing the channel at night, under full sail, motor off, switches on his steaming (!) light as he approaches the first lane of the TSS. What message is he sending to oncoming vessels?

Answer those two, and you'll realise that any discussion about whether or not a motor is propelling the boat, or whether it's easy or difficult to manouevre under sail, is quite irrelevant.

Rubbish, those two vessels are breaking the law and misleading other vessels, their actions don't make any discussion "irrelevant".
That's like saying, because a car driver jumps a red light, all discussion about the correct use of traffic lights is irrelevant.
If your propellor is pushing you along, you're a PDV. How could it be simpler?

 

[pmagowan]

It doesn't matter who else disregards colregs you still have a responsibility to obey them. The colregs are quite clear and sensible and can be applied in all the examples given.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Rubbish, those two vessels are breaking the law and misleading other vessels, their actions don't make any discussion "irrelevant".

The rules sail that a sailing boat using its engine must hoist a cone. Where do they say that a sailing boat which is not using its engine must not hoist a cone?

 

[jimbaerselman]

A agree that in both situations the sailboat is mis-leading other vessels about its real situation, and thus could be interpreted as breaking colregs.

However, in both situations the message being sent is "I am a vessel under power", and other vessels have to behave as if that is the case.

Consider situation 2, crossing TSS. When the sail boat reaches the second lane, traffic comes from starboard. In good vis, sail is "stand on". When not in visual contact, sail is not "stand on". Sending the signal "I am under power, therefore the give-way vessel" removes that ambiguity/uncertainty

Sure, in both cases, the engine should be engaged to propel the vessel. Also, to further reduce ambiguities, the jib should be rolled/lowered.

 

[GrahamM376]

Rule 3 is also quite clear on the definition of a "power-driven vessel" - it means "... any vessel propelled by machinery". A boat sailing with it's engine in neutral is not being propelled by machinery, it is being propelled by it's sails alone.

So, to take this even further, you're approaching a berth under engine (mainsail flapping) and knock it into neutral ready to go into astern to stop. Are you saying the boat isn't propelled by machinery at that point?

Having had some discussions with jfm on legal interpretations, I would think he's correct but suspect it may depend on the circumstances under which the machinery was running and the intent of the skipper. As others have said, running the engine to charge the batteries with no intent of engaging the prop surely can't make it power driven.

 

[pmagowan]

If you have to apply colregs while berthing then I suspect you have bigger problems than what is propelling your boat.

 

[l'escargot]

So, to take this even further, you're approaching a berth under engine (mainsail flapping) and knock it into neutral ready to go into astern to stop. Are you saying the boat isn't propelled by machinery at that point?....

It isn't sailing which is the crucial point in regards to the rules - but then ColRegs aren't applicable in the situation you describe so it doesn't really matter what it is.

...Having had some discussions with jfm on legal interpretations, I would think he's correct but suspect it may depend on the circumstances under which the machinery was running and the intent of the skipper. As others have said, running the engine to charge the batteries with no intent of engaging the prop surely can't make it power driven.

There are clearly times when interpretation is reasonable and I agree with you regard circumstances.

If I am motoring down the Hamble with my sails up and cone flying, then drop the cone and knock the engine out of gear to claim sailing rights but collide with a boat then I would expect to be found at fault. But if I was sailing close to the wind with no cone up and my engine running in neutral to charge my batteries or in preparation to drop my sails and a motorboat collided with me because he had applied rules regarding me as a motorboat, then I would expect him to be at found at fault.

However I don't believe that anything in either situation changes the general, and possibly broad, definition that a sailing boat (as in a boat actually sailing) doesn't become a motorboat because it's engine is running. I would still maintain it only becomes a motorboat when it is propelled by machinery which is the actual point that the rules require it to hoist a cone to show that change in status.

 

[l'escargot]

If you have to apply colregs while berthing then I suspect you have bigger problems than what is propelling your boat.

I don't think there is a rule that specifies interaction between a boat and a pontoon...

 

[jerrytug]

The rules sail that a sailing boat using its engine must hoist a cone. Where do they say that a sailing boat which is not using its engine must not hoist a cone?

Probably the same thing they say about a vessel, not at anchor, hoisting an anchor ball

 

[onesea]

No I was comparing a motor boat and a sailing boat in two separate situations with their engine running. So if someone has forgotten to take their anchor ball down and is heading towards you at 8 knots, you are going to treat them as an anchored boat?

If they are showing no intention of altering and there bearing is not changing appreciably, I am certainly not going to stand on until the last moment given the information given.

So you expect someone else sailing to to stop sailing and engage their engine and start motoring so you don't have to take the required action under ColRegs? I don't think that is a reasonable expectation - or an "ordinary practice if seamen".

Depending on the situation yes, I do it on the rare occasions I am in that situation. My engine controls are below so sometimes I do start it just in case. If its going to cause me a massive detour, then I will stand on. At busy river entrances cutting close behind Hurst in light winds with engine running just in case the wind shadow does something silly are times that come to mind. Seaman ship curtisy what ever, for some sailing is about having a good day out not arguing the finer points that lawyers would love to contest in port...

Anyway that's all a side show. To get back on to the OP are you saying that a boat sailing with it's engine running, but not propelling the boat, should be treated as a motorboat for the purposes of ColRegs?

I again go back to quoting jimbaerselman.

It depends whether or not a cone is hoisted! Or a white light is showing to the forward sector!

Because that is what other boats have to rely on.

 

[Tempus]

I'm always amazed at the degree of pedantry on these Colregs threads. I agree that everybody has to be clear, but most of the time it's about courtesy and clarity and no risk of collision really exists.

If I'm sailing and am forced to tack to give way to another sailing boat and then see their engine running I feel miffed, simple! I suspect MOBO's feel the same. As a result we always turn the engine off as soon as we start sailing to make it clear that we are sailing to other boat users (amongst many other things)
ps - All this talk of motor cones is b*lls too, I've never ever seen one in UK waters. Most people would recognise just the mainsail up as a motoring cone replacement.

 

[GrahamM376]

If you have to apply colregs while berthing then I suspect you have bigger problems than what is propelling your boat.

Colregs apply whenever the boat is making way.

 

[l'escargot]

...Anyway that's all a side show. To get back on to the OP are you saying that a boat sailing with it's engine running, but not propelling the boat, should be treated as a motorboat for the purposes of ColRegs?

...I again go back to quoting jimbaerselman.

It depends whether or not a cone is hoisted! Or a white light is showing to the forward sector!

Because that is what other boats have to rely on.

Then clearly you don't but you seem to have some difficulty accepting it. Rule 25 is totally unambiguous in that it says that a cone must be hoisted "...when also being propelled by machinery". A vessel complying with ColRegs will not be showing a cone if it is sailing with it's engine running but not propelling the boat.

 

[l'escargot]

I'm always amazed at the degree of pedantry on these Colregs threads. I agree that everybody has to be clear, but most of the time it's about courtesy and clarity and no risk of collision really exists.

If I'm sailing and am forced to tack to give way to another sailing boat and then see their engine running I feel miffed, simple! I suspect MOBO's feel the same. As a result we always turn the engine off as soon as we start sailing to make it clear that we are sailing to other boat users (amongst many other things)
ps - All this talk of motor cones is b*lls too, I've never ever seen one in UK waters. Most people would recognise just the mainsail up as a motoring cone replacement.

I'm always amazed at the number of people who think they can reinterpret ColRegs and pick and choose the ones the ones they want to comply with - probably often leaving a trail of havoc behind them...

 

[l'escargot]

Colregs apply whenever the boat is making way.

And most rules don't apply in many situations when a vessel is making way.

In fact I can't think of one of the "International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea" that would apply in that situation where there is just a boat and a pontoon, can you? (Unless you want to be picky and say it's dark so he should have his lights on )