Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?

[pmagowan]

The rules don't require anyone to stand on until there is a collision. They prevent this. If you abide by the rules you can't crash unless the other boat goes out if his way to ram you even as you take action to avoid it. What constitutes a motorboat or sailboat is clear. It is less clear that you could identify what the other boats status is. He may not be showing a cone or it may not be visible to you. Colregs tell you what to do if in doubt. I don't agree that you MUST assume they are sailing if not displaying a cone. I think you MUST have good reason not to, but it is possible to judge in many instances and the shapes are there as aids of identification.

I have never found colregs restrictive. I don't find myself standing on until I am somewhere I would rather not be. I think anyone that is doing so obviously doesn't understand them. If I am going from a to b and meet a boat on the way, our courses collide and thus the regs apply, I apply them. I don't choose to plot courses through racing fleets or into people doing a MOB drill...?? I can avoid a risk of collision happening in many instances such that nobody has to take action just by planning my passage. However, once one does exist I will follow the rules to the letter as they give clear responsibilities without requiring you to do anything unseamanlike. The rules give you the leeway to take any situation into account. Those that are scared to follow them evidently don't understand them and are IMO unseamanlike.

 

[onesea]

OK People of the forum how would you deal with the following: PDV or sailing?

A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

Just curious

Just curious

 

[bedouin]

OK People of the forum how would you deal with the following: PDV or sailing?

Just curious

Just curious

A-E are all power driven boats - none of those could even be described as motor-sailers

F-H Sailing - all have sails up and at least approximately set and from the still pictures there is no way of telling that they aren't under sail

 

[freddy the frog]

common sense

A-E are all power driven boats - none of those could even be described as motor-sailers

F-H Sailing - all have sails up and at least approximately set and from the still pictures there is no way of telling that they aren't under sail

Just use your common sense which seems to fail most yachties i will move out of the way once for a boat but not twice school boats especialy, when the skipper is trying to prove a point to the other eight on board about right of way.
Classic last weekend off calshot no wind all motoring school boat heading right for me on my starboard quarter no sails just motoring could have gone behind but no past my bow with inches total ars-----e

 

[Tempus]

F-H Sailing - all have sails up and at least approximately set and from the still pictures there is no way of telling that they aren't under sail

This has been a very enlightening thread.

It started with a suggestion from a MOBO that a boat with it's engine running is a PDV and should not be given way too - a POV that most agreed was extreme.

We've ended with a requirement that all sailing boats with their sails up, even when obviously motoring should be treated as sailing boats, and given way to accordingly "just in case" their perfectly serviceable engines aren't actually in gear.

Laughable.
MOBO's, you have my sympathy, maybe we are all WAFI's after all.

 

[onesea]

A-E are all power driven boats - none of those could even be described as motor-sailers

Playing devils advocate, without the cone up how do you know, they could just REALLY know how to set the sails!!!

Having spent some time on a motor sailer, it does get annoying when yachties decide you are motoring when your not....

 

[Simondjuk]

No, of course it's not.

 

[bedouin]

Playing devils advocate, without the cone up how do you know, they could just REALLY know how to set the sails!!!

Having spent some time on a motor sailer, it does get annoying when yachties decide you are motoring when your not....

As I read the rules a vessel is a sailing vessel by construction - one designed to sail. A motor vessel that just happened to have a sail hoist wouldn't be classified as a sailing vessel according to the rules.

 

[onesea]

As I read the rules a vessel is a sailing vessel by construction - one designed to sail. A motor vessel that just happened to have a sail hoist wouldn't be classified as a sailing vessel according to the rules.

Are you sure?

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

 

[bedouin]

Are you sure?

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

Interesting - but as it doesn't define what it means to be under sail then it is not as clear as it might be.

If I have my mainsail hoist but sheeted in hard on the centreline so that it is not providing any propulsion am I still "under sail"

 

[l'escargot]

OK People of the forum how would you deal with the following: PDV or sailing?

A

D

Just curious

Just curious

Well A & D look moored to me.

Anyone can find examples of people not obeying the rules or vessels that may at times fall between rules, but they are the exception rather than the rule and don't impact in any way on the wording of the rules or how they should apply.

However, the rules do tell you what your obligations are and how you should behave in those situations so that you can take the necessary action to avoid a collision.

In all those examples, if you were to act as if all those vessels are sailing, you will most probably avoid colliding with them by that action alone and that is the whole intention of the rules - giving you the ability to avoid hitting another boat.

Now if you want to be rather daft and say "I reckon that boat over there under sail is motoring and I am going to stand on and risk a collision" then there isn't much anyone can do about it, but I don't see how that complies with the rules or fits in with your assertions of avoiding other boats, despite what the rules say, or "good seamanship"...

 

[MASH]

My "Seaman's guide to the R of the R" says, "A sailing vessel is propelled by sails and only sails" (page 9). and "A vessel (being) propelled by machinery" is a power driven vessel (page 7)

As if those definitions actually need re-stating here!!!

 

[l'escargot]

...We've ended with a requirement that all sailing boats with their sails up, even when obviously motoring should be treated as sailing boats, and given way to accordingly "just in case" their perfectly serviceable engines aren't actually in gear...

Actually, under a strict interpretation of the rules, I think we started with that position - if in doubt, a boat proceeding under sail without a cone should be treated as a sailing boat. If you don't do that, some blame would be apportioned to you if a collision occurred. Nowhere do the rules mention exhausts, or engines in or out of gear.

 

[bedouin]

My "Seaman's guide to the R of the R" says, "A sailing vessel is propelled by sails and only sails" (page 9). and "A vessel (being) propelled by machinery" is a power driven vessel (page 7)

As if those definitions actually need re-stating here!!!

But incorrect - according to those definitions I never need a motoring cone

 

[jerrytug]

But incorrect - according to those definitions I never need a motoring cone

For the purposes of defining vessels for collision avoidance rules, a sailing yacht with the cone up is a PDV.

 

[MASH]

No it's not incorrect Bedu, not incorrect at all, those are the basic definitions of power and sail which is what I was illustrating. That's not actually the whole of the R of the R you know, there is more...

 

[l'escargot]

...I can avoid a risk of collision happening in many instances such that nobody has to take action just by planning my passage. However, once one does exist I will follow the rules to the letter as they give clear responsibilities without requiring you to do anything unseamanlike. The rules give you the leeway to take any situation into account. Those that are scared to follow them evidently don't understand them and are IMO unseamanlike.

i think that is a fair summing up.

 

[jerrytug]

i think that is a fair summing up.

+1

 

[onesea]

+1

The only thing I would add is there occasions where the braver step is to deviate form the rules, its not on every occasion. You have to be certain of your knowledge of the rules and the reason you are deviating....

 

[MASH]

For all practical purposes to everyone else on the water a sailing boat is a sailing boat if it has it's sails up until it displays a cone, regardless of whether the engine is being used for propulsion or not. If the sailor doesn't display a cone the rest of us can't be expected to discern whether his engine is in gear or not. Just isn't possible.

No cone = not motoring. Simple. OK, it allows the lazy or unscrupulous to avoid some of their obligations. So what?