pteron
Member
l'escargot said:
jfm said:
In my opinion jfm is incorrect.
'being used' implies that it is used for the purposes of the rule, i.e. propelling the vessel.
What say you?
Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?
- Thread starter pteron
- Start date
In my opinion jfm is incorrect.
'being used' implies that it is used for the purposes of the rule, i.e. propelling the vessel.
What say you?
Stork_III
Well-known member
jfm is incorrect. A sailing vessel is under sail. If the engine is running but not propelling it is not being used in the contect of making the sailing vessel a power driven vessel.
jimbaerselman
New member
It depends whether or not a cone is hoisted! Or a white light is showing to the forward sector!
Because that is what other boats have to rely on.
Because that is what other boats have to rely on.
bigwow
Well-known member
If the engine is running and fuel is being consumed, surely the engine is being used.
onesea
Well-known member
I would agree here, no cone still sailing.
Then again I would just call it good seamanship not to interfere with sailing boats I had the engine started.
Then again there is nothing in the rules about keeping out of the way of boats or slowing down to reduce wash for taking sails down/ putting them up or doing a man-overboard drill or approaching a berth/ mooring, racing and plenty other times/ places yet I would still keep out of there way as far as reasonably practical. I would call it seamanship.
Sadly you can always depend on others to show such curtisy or seaman ship, part of being afloat. I would love to think it was better in days of yaw then again I doubt it was...
Then some time in history here, I think he was an RYA instructor or something told me quite firmly I was wrong. Each to there own I will keep out of his way and depending on the circumstances of the case my opinion of him will be lower....
Birdseye
Well-known member
jfm is wrong. our legal system is a joke but even the judges arent that daft and simplistic. under jfm's view of life, a sailing boat under sail with no engine on but a generator would be under power
go back to first principles. the purpose of the dividing line power /sail in the regs is because the two types have different manoeuvre capabilities and the other boat needs to know what he is dealing with. this is what a judge would look at, not a simplistic view of whether an engine is combusting or not.
Melleman
New member
Delta Lloyd have a regata callde 24uur-race her in Holland.
In this regata it is ok to charge batterys with the engine but if you put your engine in gear you will be discvalified.
In this regata it is ok to charge batterys with the engine but if you put your engine in gear you will be discvalified.
lw395
Well-known member
Sailing with the motor running to charge batteries = Sailing
Starting the motor with intent to engage gear = motoring
If you have a genoa or kite set, your options for changing course are limited, whether the motor is running or not.
It takes longer to hand the genoa or spinnaker than to start the motor.
In terms of ability to keep clear, there is often little difference between engine in neutral and engine switched off.
Starting the motor with intent to engage gear = motoring
If you have a genoa or kite set, your options for changing course are limited, whether the motor is running or not.
It takes longer to hand the genoa or spinnaker than to start the motor.
In terms of ability to keep clear, there is often little difference between engine in neutral and engine switched off.
Sybarite
Well-known member
Try arguing that with somebody who says: "I saw the exhaust discharge; therefore you were using your engine."
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
My take on it would be that if the engine is running, then it is immediately available for use, giving the vessel the manoeuvrability of a motor vessel even if at that particular moment it is under sail. Surely the distinction in ColRegs between motor vessels and sailing vessels is because of the restrictions on manoeuvring that being under sail imposes; a vessel purely under sail can't turn in certain directions, and may not have instantaneous control of her speed. A vessel under sail but with the engine running can simply put the engine in gear and proceed as a motor vessel.
However, the only time I have the engine running and not in gear when sailing are the few minutes after setting the sails, until I get round to shutting it down!
However, the only time I have the engine running and not in gear when sailing are the few minutes after setting the sails, until I get round to shutting it down!
mjcoon
Well-known member
Melleman
New member
That´s why someone invented dry exhaust.
Stemar
Well-known member
When I see a potentially awkward situation developing, like meeting the RtI coming the other way
eek, I have been known to start the engine and leave it in neutral in case I need it to manoeuvre in a hurry. It takes me several seconds to start my engine from cold, and the start button is out of reach of the tiller, so I’d prefer not to have to do it when things are already going pear shaped.I do have the advantage that my exhaust is so close to the waterline that it's impossible to distinguish from the turbulance under the stern, so anyone wanting to use it to decide if I'm under power can't tell!
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lw395
Well-known member
Not if it's got a spinnaker up, or if its correct action as a power boat would be to go head to wind, or to gybe.
Or at the other end of the size scale, a square rigger.
OTOH if you've only got the main up, you're probably fair game.
Like you, it's unlikely to be an issue for me, as it's rare to have the engine running out of gear, except around the process of setting/handing sails.
johnalison
Well-known member
I don't see the difference between a generator running to charge the batteries and an engine out of gear doing the same thing. And stop calling me Shirley.
It would be different if the engine were, say, briefly in neutral during a period of motor-sailing if the sailor's intent was to re-engage gear, so the situation is never entirely clear and normally, it is the responsibility of an approaching craft to treat the not-motoring-perhaps craft as the stand-on vessel.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
A chap I know has a boat like mine with an electric auxiliary system - lots of batteries and a 20hp DC motor controlled from a lever in the cockpit coaming. From "off" to "full power ahead" takes about 2 seconds. Should he be treated as a motor boat? He can certainly accelerate a lot faster than I can with my engine running and out of gear.
As for "using" ... the propelling machinery is surely (Shirley) the propeller, paddles, voith-schneider propulsors or гусеница привод. If they aren't turning (or ползать) then the propelling machinery is not in use, whether or not the systems which might power them are operating.
l'escargot
New member
I think jfm is wrong and just playing devils advocate.
A boat sailing with the engine in neutral is still sailing, it is not motoring - just like a motorboat with it's anchor down and it's motor running in neutral is still anchored and not motoring.
That it is ready for immediate use is of no consequence. Means of propulsion, not how quickly you can change means of propulsion, is what dictates the rules. The rule says "propelling machinery" not "engine" as well, so would seem to anticipate that an engine can be used for purposes other than propulsion.
A boat sailing with the engine in neutral is still sailing, it is not motoring - just like a motorboat with it's anchor down and it's motor running in neutral is still anchored and not motoring.
That it is ready for immediate use is of no consequence. Means of propulsion, not how quickly you can change means of propulsion, is what dictates the rules. The rule says "propelling machinery" not "engine" as well, so would seem to anticipate that an engine can be used for purposes other than propulsion.
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Woodlouse
New member
I would tell them it was a generator and see what they had to say to that.
Elessar
Well-known member
He said "you may argue but you cannot say for sure. ". It is unlikely he'd be wrong about that.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Of course its clear Shirley. If you are making way with no sails you are motoring. If you have sails up you are sailing unless, of course, you are motoring when you will have your motorsailing cone displayed or your steaming light at night. The whole point of the col regs in such an area is to give the other bu66er some idea of how manoeuverable you are and who is the give way vessel. Outside of a race protest hearing or a court you dont have to prove that you were doing what your signals say you were. Inside a court or a protest hearing you will have to explain yourself and produce witnesses is available.
So its all really a non argument unless you break the law and motorsail without the cone. And you wouldnt do that would you?
