Is a sailing boat with its engine on but not in gear a power boat?

[l'escargot]

Change the rules or definitions still wouldn't stop people from either choosing to ignore them or operating out of ignorance of them. It is very hard to have rules that cover all such eventualities. The best the ColRegs can do is to give you a rule that says in such situations you too can operate outside of the rules and do whatever is necessary - that's why there is always rule 2b to fall back on, it protects you in such circumstances

 

[onesea]

I don't have a problem with a boat with no headsail out, mainsail sheeted hard in and heading straight into the wind, being treated as someone motorsailing who hasn't bothered to put up a cone - wrong in regards to ColRegs but no big issue. In most cases they would probably expect to be treated as a motoring boat too.

What I would have a problem with is someone treating me as a motoring boat if I was sailing off the wind, with sails clearly drawing and providing propulsion but for whatever reason I had my engine ticking over out of gear and under no obligation to display a cone. I believe they would be wrong in regards to ColRegs too - I wouldn't be.

Ah but without the cone how are outsiders to know??? which and who to treat as what? the day shapes are there for a reason...

If you can crack along at 5 knots under sail in 5-6 knots of wind (without engine) you would be amazed how many treat you as a motorboat, particularly yachts that do not think you can go that quick... Happened to me the other week pushing out through Hurst I was beating out a Halberg Raty was catching up so the race was on, it was only when I was in the lee of Hurst (no engine running) getting knocked about by the current. I tacked to avoid him coming through on starboard the git was motor-sailing, I guess he assumed I was too..

I think you are muddling two different points - letting a car out from a side junction doesn't change the status of a "Give Way" sign - you can obviously choose to take considerate action with regards to other vessels which is contrary to the rules as long as it doesn't create misunderstandings between both parties, and the rules allow for that, but such actions don't change the rules or any definitions within them, they are a deviation from then.

Can you explain the idea of consideration to the poster below, I will try but think he is past hope... Then some of the boats that Tempus is talking about.... That consideration is the point I was trying to make...

Are you simply saying that you won't stand on as is your obligation under colregs where appropriate.

No I am not I am saying I wont stand on, if I see the circumstances of the case are such that the actions of ordinary seamanship suggest I will deviate from the rules.

I will try not to stand on into a racing fleet, for a boat on port tack taking its main down, avoid a MOB drill, I will normally take action before I get in close quarters situation of a boat running with a spinnaker up, if I see a group of 3 (why always in groups?) MOBO racing up through the Solent I will tack off first let them go there are 100's of other examples out there.

Yes if I have my engine running (but not engaged) I will use it to relieve the situation as I see fit. As long as I make my intentions clear most people are pleased at the consideration, if they even notice......

There are like most things in life times to do things and times not to.... Its a judgment call...

 

[pmagowan]

Ah but without the cone how are outsiders to know??? which and who to treat as what? the day shapes are there for a reason...

If you can crack along at 5 knots under sail in 5-6 knots of wind (without engine) you would be amazed how many treat you as a motorboat, particularly yachts that do not think you can go that quick... Happened to me the other week pushing out through Hurst I was beating out a Halberg Raty was catching up so the race was on, it was only when I was in the lee of Hurst (no engine running) getting knocked about by the current. I tacked to avoid him coming through on starboard the git was motor-sailing, I guess he assumed I was too..



Can you explain the idea of consideration to the poster below, I will try but think he is past hope... Then some of the boats that Tempus is talking about.... That consideration is the point I was trying to make...



No I am not I am saying I wont stand on, if I see the circumstances of the case are such that the actions of ordinary seamanship suggest I will deviate from the rules.

I will try not to stand on into a racing fleet, for a boat on port tack taking its main down, avoid a MOB drill, I will normally take action before I get in close quarters situation of a boat running with a spinnaker up, if I see a group of 3 (why always in groups?) MOBO racing up through the Solent I will tack off first let them go there are 100's of other examples out there.

Yes if I have my engine running (but not engaged) I will use it to relieve the situation as I see fit. As long as I make my intentions clear most people are pleased at the consideration, if they even notice......

There are like most things in life times to do things and times not to.... Its a judgment call...

You have mentioned a number of examples where colregs specifically give you leeway to avoid being stand on. However, you still seem to imply that you won't stand in as per your obligation. You are keen to read between the lines, even of my simple question, as well as the colregs. In a normal situation where you have assessed that there is a risk of collision and you are the stand on vessel then you are obligated to do so until such time as the colregs allows you to take avoiding action. In not doing so you would be acting in the unpredictable manner which gives small vessels a bad name and a reputation for poor seamanship. It is all very well taking the easy way out and blaming your courteous nature for your disregard of the rules but they remain the rules. There are loads of individual situations were it is ok to relax them as they specifically state but in the normal state of affairs the stand on vessel MUST stand on and the give way vessel must take early and obvious action to avoid collision. The rules also state what to do if there is doubt about the other vessels status or if they fail to take appropriate action.

The rules are not there to be applied willy nilly. They are unambiguous and clear in their meaning. If you wish to ignore them that is fine but trying to suggest it is good seamanship to do so is disingenuous. I understand the temptation to react rather than stand on but if it was wise for both craft to react then there would not be a rule obligating one to stand on. The only situation where any of this is relevant is where a collision takes place which normally means a combined failure of command of both craft but you can be sure your disregard for the rules will not aid your case and the reason for the rules are quite sensible and not simply litigious.

 

[bedouin]

Don't know the answer (officially a cone, but practically?) but it's annoying and potentially dangerous as there is genuine confusion. Personally we only ever put the headsail out if we're sailing (gives the engine something to power on too). I suspect the original Mobo question arose out of annoyance / confusion at those type of instances than having to give way to a yacht sailing full and bye with the engine ticking over.

There isn't confusion - if he isn't displaying a cone then you have to treat him as a sailing vessel. He may be wrong but two wrongs don't make a right.

The confusion only comes if you start to second guess and work on the assumption that someone else isn't obeying Colregs.

 

[alan_d]

That's the danger of taking rules in isolation, they need to be read in conjunction with each other.

I entirely agree.

Interpreting it your way, in isolation, makes every sailing boat fitted with an engine a power driven vessel whether the propelling gear is in use or not. Clearly that isn't the case. Rule 3 gives the definitive definition of what a power driven vessel is.

I was not offering any interpretation, merely pointing out a difficulty with yours. " A boat not being propelled by machinery cannot be a power driven vessel."

Interestingly, the preamble to Rule 3 General Definitions states "For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:" You describe 3(b) as the "definitive definition" (Is there any other kind?) of a power-driven vessel, but the preamble makes it clear that the definitions may require contextual modification.

 

[l'escargot]

I entirely agree.
I was not offering any interpretation, merely pointing out a difficulty with yours. " A boat not being propelled by machinery cannot be a power driven vessel."

Interestingly, the preamble to Rule 3 General Definitions states "For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:" You describe 3(b) as the "definitive definition" (Is there any other kind?) of a power-driven vessel, but the preamble makes it clear that the definitions may require contextual modification.

A contextual modification does not alter the definition and yes, there can be non definitive definitions as some of the definitions put forward by posters on here demonstrate

 

[l'escargot]

Ah but without the cone how are outsiders to know??? which and who to treat as what? the day shapes are there for a reason...

If you can crack along at 5 knots under sail in 5-6 knots of wind (without engine) you would be amazed how many treat you as a motorboat, particularly yachts that do not think you can go that quick... Happened to me the other week pushing out through Hurst I was beating out a Halberg Raty was catching up so the race was on, it was only when I was in the lee of Hurst (no engine running) getting knocked about by the current. I tacked to avoid him coming through on starboard the git was motor-sailing, I guess he assumed I was too..



Can you explain the idea of consideration to the poster below, I will try but think he is past hope... Then some of the boats that Tempus is talking about.... That consideration is the point I was trying to make...



No I am not I am saying I wont stand on, if I see the circumstances of the case are such that the actions of ordinary seamanship suggest I will deviate from the rules.

I will try not to stand on into a racing fleet, for a boat on port tack taking its main down, avoid a MOB drill, I will normally take action before I get in close quarters situation of a boat running with a spinnaker up, if I see a group of 3 (why always in groups?) MOBO racing up through the Solent I will tack off first let them go there are 100's of other examples out there.

Yes if I have my engine running (but not engaged) I will use it to relieve the situation as I see fit. As long as I make my intentions clear most people are pleased at the consideration, if they even notice......

There are like most things in life times to do things and times not to.... Its a judgment call...

I think you really need to read the ColRegs and try very hard to understand them, as well as examining what "good seamanship" means - some of the questions in your post could suggest you aren't entirely clear on the concept I am afraid.

 

[Tempus]

There isn't confusion - if he isn't displaying a cone then you have to treat him as a sailing vessel. He may be wrong but two wrongs don't make a right.

The confusion only comes if you start to second guess and work on the assumption that someone else isn't obeying Colregs.

Nonsense. Only he knows he's motor sailing so the potential confusion arises when we both alter course simulataneously to give way, the most dangerous act in collision avoidance. So by your simplistic view should a none-cone wearing motor sailer always behave like a sailer for col situations? That would avoid confusion! If not then my point rests.

 

[bedouin]

Nonsense. Only he knows he's motor sailing so the potential confusion arises when we both alter course simulataneously to give way, the most dangerous act in collision avoidance. So by your simplistic view should a none-cone wearing motor sailer always behave like a sailer for col situations? That would avoid confusion! If not then my point rests.

Exactly - only he can know he is motor sailing - so both you and he have to act as if he were sailing.

Think of it the other way round - if you mistakenly assumed he was motor sailing and going to give way you would be 100% to blame if you had a collision.

 

[Daydream believer]

Again I go back to what I said earlier if I had engine running I will keep out of his way and depending on the circumstances of the case my opinion of him will be lower....

.

"keeping out of his way" is not always the correct procedure. Although I tend to agree with the principle.
A stand on vessel may have to remain on course & "stand on" so that the other vessel can take appropriate action without the uncertainty that the stand on vessel may change course which may conflict with the other vessels course correction
If one is "right out of his way" then Ok but one has to consider at what point one is "out of his way" or not

As an example, my AIS picked up a ship 10 miles away that had clearly made a course change to avoid me at about 4 miles range, but not by much. If I had decided at a range of a couple of miles ( when I could see the other vessel) to change course "to keep out of his way" that may have been unwise

 

[onesea]

Nonsense. Only he knows he's motor sailing so the potential confusion arises when we both alter course simulataneously to give way, the most dangerous act in collision avoidance...

Fully agree at which point you HAVE to apply the rules and standby your decision... In the cases I mention its when the other vessel has not made any alteration of course and may not of even considered me as a Risk of collision yet. I will also make my actions readily apparent to the other vessel, when sailing up wind a tack is normally suitable?

"keeping out of his way" is not always the correct procedure. Although I tend to agree with the principle.

I know I am in for a slanging by making the points I do, I agree its not always the correct procedure its a judgement call on so many accounts. For those that tell me to read the rules I have read them once or twice, I have also been practically taught them by professional mariners I know from my personnel life (when was the last time you skippered a boat with two big ship Chief Officers on board and a captain?).

The thing I do know is SWMBO hates it when I am in "that" humor in the Solent and actually follow the rules to the book. You end up in situations that only take pleasure from what should be a relaxed day afloat, not just for you but for those around you... I do not wander round avoiding every boat I see but with a little bit of for thought you can keep well clear of boats and have a much more pleasant sail...

 

[Daydream believer]

The thing I do know is SWMBO hates it when I am in "that" humor in the Solent and actually follow the rules to the book. You end up in situations that only take pleasure from what should be a relaxed day afloat, not just for you but for those around you... ..

What SWMBO hates will have little effect when in a court hearing about an accident. But as i said i tend to agree with " keeping clear" but I wanted to make the point about due regard to what the consequences are

 

[snowleopard]

I have the interesting problem that there is no day mark to say 'I really am sailing even though it looks as though I'm motoring', i.e. the converse of the cone. I can and do sail under mast alone. While I theoretically am a sailing boat I have to assume others will treat me as a mobo so don't push my luck in a potential collision situation.

 

[onesea]

What SWMBO hates will have little effect when in a court hearing about an accident. But as i said i tend to agree with " keeping clear" but I wanted to make the point about due regard to what the consequences are

It is a judgement call and being confident in your decision that the situation will not occur... I feel for the poor sods on the busy Solent who believe they have to follow every rule tot he letter they will never get to where they are going! In the same way as those of us who wander round avoiding every one (as some like to think) should never get to where we are going!

The other consequence of keeping things real with SWMBO is that she has spent the last 2 weekends fender kicking whilst I have been at work and tomorrow she is going to the boat show without me!!!

I have the interesting problem that there is no day mark to say 'I really am sailing even though it looks as though I'm motoring', i.e. the converse of the cone. I can and do sail under mast alone. While I theoretically am a sailing boat I have to assume others will treat me as a mobo so don't push my luck in a potential collision situation.

Just to wind things up again a MOBO could claim the same. As I understand the rules you can still start your engine (if fitted) or alter course using your sail as required by the rules... A drifting MOBO still has to comply with the rules....

 

[snowleopard]

We have clearly demonstrated that seeing exhaust gases doesn't give others the right to treat us as a mobo but what is the correct action for others seeing a boat with sails hoisted that is clearly motoring but shows no cone, i.e. the normal practice in British waters? That might range from a boat that appears to be going too fast for the wind conditions to a boat with mainsail flapping heading straight up-wind. Are you going to give way to him even if he is approaching from your port side? And of course the boat sailing with visible exhaust emissions - do you assume he's motoring and stand on to him?

 

[l'escargot]

We have clearly demonstrated that seeing exhaust gases doesn't give others the right to treat us as a mobo but what is the correct action for others seeing a boat with sails hoisted that is clearly motoring but shows no cone, i.e. the normal practice in British waters? That might range from a boat that appears to be going too fast for the wind conditions to a boat with mainsail flapping heading straight up-wind. Are you going to give way to him even if he is approaching from your port side? And of course the boat sailing with visible exhaust emissions - do you assume he's motoring and stand on to him?

What you should do is, in the absence of a signal to the contrary you are obliged to take it that he is sailing - you apply the rules accordingly and do what the rules require you to do, until it becomes clear his actions alone won't avoid a collision and then you take the necessary action.

 

[l'escargot]

...Just to wind things up again a MOBO could claim the same. As I understand the rules you can still start your engine (if fitted) or alter course using your sail as required by the rules... A drifting MOBO still has to comply with the rules....

A Mobo couldn't, it can't meet the definition of a sailing vessel under rule 3. Any drifting boat has to comply with the rules, there are no exemptions.

 

[bedouin]

Are you going to give way to him even if he is approaching from your port side? And of course the boat sailing with visible exhaust emissions - do you assume he's motoring and stand on to him?

If you stand on and a collision results then you will be deemed to be at least partly in the wrong

 

[snowleopard]

What you should do is, in the absence of a signal to the contrary you are obliged to take it that he is sailing - you apply the rules accordingly and do what the rules require you to do, until it becomes clear his actions alone won't avoid a collision and then you take the necessary action.

If you stand on and a collision results then you will be deemed to be at least partly in the wrong

I agree with those but what about those who still believe having the engine running makes you a power vessel, are you going to stand on across their bows if you can see an exhaust?

 

[l'escargot]

I agree with those but what about those who still believe having the engine running makes you a power vessel, are you going to stand on across their bows if you can see an exhaust?

There is no mention of exhausts in colregs. If a vessel is proceeding under sail and there is no cone on display, you are obliged to treat it as a sailing boat under the rules. Anything else is a deviation from the rules for which you will be held accountable - "I stood on because I could see his exhaust" wouldn't be a defence. If the other boat is subsequently found to have been motoring and not displaying a cone, he will also be held accountable.