In what circumstances should sail give way to power ?

[hobiecat]

One circumstance that always gets me is on the Hamble. Motoring on stb side side of channel invariably some yachtie or dinghy is tacking away and impedes my passage. I am motoring in a narrow channel on stb side. Yachtie should not impede me under rule 9. Am I right in telling yachtie to get over on right side of channel as rule 9 overules the power boat gives way to sail stuff??

 

[fireball]

See - that sort of thing really confuses me ... do you NEED to creep up the right hand side of the channel? Are you restricted to just the right hand side of the channel? Can you not easily deviate from the course?

As for sailing a yacht up the hamble - well, ok - it is a little unnessersary - especially during busy times - far better to just use the engine into the wind - sail it if it is a nice reach and you can hold a sensible course!!

 

[hobiecat]

No you dont need to stay on the right when no -one is around. Common sense prevails. When it is crowded - my understanding of collision regs says motor boats have as much right to career all over the hamble river as the sail boats. ie no right at all. Are there any bye - laws to say sail boats can do this? Rule 9 says all boats should keep to the right hand side of a narrow channel. Full stop, end of story. Would be interesting as a test case, yachtie smashes into power boat in narrow channel on stb side.

 

[fireball]

The crux - is what is defined as a Narrow channel ...

as both a dinghy racer and a raggie I can see both arguements ... a narrow channel for the big boat is much wider than a narrow channel for the dinghy - because at 14' I can swing the dinghy round almost in it's own length, sail trim is quick and easy ... oh and I've been sailing them for 25 years (not the same dinghy .. just dinghies in general!) ... however, for the big raggie undersail the channel suddenly becomes much narrower as it takes more time to complete each tack/gybe and you generally need to co-ordinate with crew ... even under engine it can seem narrower ... but - what is the definition of a "narrow channel" .... is it related to your waterlength?

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
...Rule 9 says all boats should keep to the right hand side of a narrow channel. Full stop, end of story...

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, you got your full stop in the wrong place - it is:

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.

See, it should come there, just after "practicable". It isn't "practicable" for a yacht tacking into the wind coming towards them down the channel to keep to the starboard side.

Confusing things these full stops..........

 

[hobiecat]

The rule also says "safe" and "practical". It is hardly safe for a yacht to come tacking down a crowded narrow channel like the hamble. Much "safer" and "practical" for her to use her engine and keep to stb side and apply rule 9 like the mobos. Put to a court in an accident I think the judge would favour the mobo under rule 9.

 

[fireball]

Jeeze - all opinionated responses ... where is your FACT ... why is it unsafe for a yacht to tack down the hamble? is it always crowded or just when you go through? what is a definition of crowded? is the engine really safer? what makes it safer? is it because you perceive a vessel to have more control when under engine?

Put to court and I KNOW the judge will examine all the evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion - I do not presume to know what that conclusion is without the evidence!

Take an example - sailing yacht tacking down the hamble river (no tide flow) in say F3, mobo heading up the river on the right hand side - collision risk exists ...

if the yacht assumes he is stand on (sail v motor) then he should do so until it is apparent that the mobo is not taking avoiding action at which point the onus is on the sail boat skipper to avoid a collision.

if the mobo skipper assumes he is stand on (rule 9 as you say) then he should also stand on until it is apparent that the yacht is not taking enough action - at which point he must also accept the responsibility to avoid a collision and take appropriate action.

if a collision then occurs then I would say that fault is 50:50 ... as neither skipper acted in sufficient time to avoid a collision - even if they both believed they were stand on vessel.

Don't EVER believe you can hide behind a single rule in the colregs that removes your responsibility to avoid a collision - there isn't one. There may be circumstances which weigh the fault on one side, but do be clear that the ultimate responsibility for the safety and wellbeing of your vessel and crew rests with you.

 

[hobiecat]

My understanding is that courts usually define a narrow channel as a buoyed channel. So legally speaking I guess courts could define soton water as a narrow channel.

 

[BrendanS]

The fact is, that when 80 odd vessels try to navigate up the river of a weekend late afternoon, it's difficult to say the least, and boats under sail only, cause mayhem, as there is nowhere to go to avoid them.

Try towing a boat with dead engine in under those circumstances, and you're soon on the vhf, asking all ribs in the area to ride shotgun on the towline, and ward off sailing yachts trying to cut through the space between the tow and towee.

 

[hobiecat]

I agree with all you write but can you explain to me on what basis the yacht can possibly assume he is the stand on vessel (sail v motor) when the mobo is on the right hand side of a narrow channel like the Hamble. I dont understand this and think a fair minded judge would feel the same.

I can see no justification for the yacht possibly thinking he can assume he is the stand on vessel. I even think it is safer and more practical for a dinghy to tack rather than expect a large mobo to take avoiding action, particularly in a cross wind. Low speed handling is often very difficult for mobo, especially on the edge of a narrow channel, many sailboats dont appreciate this.

 

[Gludy]

Fireball
Under Colregs the idea at least is that each vessel should know if they are the stand on or give way before there is any risk of collision when both have a duty to avoid collision, if at all possible.

So the real issue is who in those circumstances is the stand on vessel.

In those circumstances the yacht has a duty to pass to port and not act as the stand on vessel but as passing vessels when both have an equal right of way and should pass port to port.

The yacht failing to do this and tack across the front of the power boat when that boat is restricted in its ability to manoeuvre is against colregs.

May be it would be clearer if the power boat showed the correct signs but in such a channel all boats of any reasonable draft are restricted as a result of being constrained by their draft.

I think courst often do pretty well always attribute some balme to even the most innocent of parties, in that you are right but vessels should always know in all circumstances who is the stand on vessel.

That is how I see it.

 

[fireball]

The whole of the solent is buoyed - bu ardly restricted or narrow for the majority of users .... just the large commercial fleet!

 

[fireball]

I don't disagree ... but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to sail up and down the hamble ... ever .. a bit of common sense helps ... which some skippers do seem to lack!

 

[fireball]

It comes down to your definition of a narrow channel ...

You won't find me tacking up or down the Hamble ... however, if I was and it was just you and me in the channel (and I didn't consider it a narrow channel) then I would hope that you'd use the spare water around me, if there was reasonable time and opportunity to do so - personally I would be expecting you (or any other mobo) to not alter your course though.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
The yacht failing to do this and tack across the front of the power boat when that boat is restricted in its ability to manoeuvre is against colregs

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you judge if a vessel is restricted in its ability to manouver? Unless it is showing the day shapes it is then up to the skipper to judge if the other vessel is restricted. Given the fact that I know I could do a 180 degree turn in the hamble river in my boat I would assume most mobos (except the really huge ones) could do similar and therefore are not restricted - inconvenienced is not the same as restricted - restricted means they cannot do it.

If a yachtie is sailing up the Hamble they should really consider the possible actions for the vessels they believe should give way and consider the whole picture rather than the isolated scenario.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]

The whole of the solent is buoyed - bu ardly restricted or narrow for the majority of users .... just the large commercial fleet!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes! We forgot that the Solent is the centre of the world and that narrow buoyed channels used only by leisure craft do not exist. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One I am thinking of is the narrow channel off Beamauris Pier which is also used by racing skiffs who are unable to comprehend that at certain states of the tide we have no where else to go, but still expect us to run ourselves aground so that they can race ten boats and on top of that, they go and park the safety boat in the centre of the channel.

 

[gandy]

To my mind the abiguity isn't in what counts as a "narrow channel", but rather which vessels count as "a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." That requires you to make some assumptions about another vessel's operation or capabilities.

 

[boatone]

[ QUOTE ]
That requires you to make some assumptions about another vessel's operation or capabilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah....now we're getting to the REAL problem.....people driving boats need to be able to THINK.....gosh....now we are really in deep doodoo /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[fireball]

Exactly my point .... the vast majority of helms are not telepathic ... and therefore cannot know what the intentions of the other helm are ... therefore they must rely on a set of rules...

If a vessel under power is assuming rule 9 and the other vessel is assuming power gives way to sail then both consider themselves stand on ...

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
....Much "safer" and "practical" for her to use her engine and keep to stb side and apply rule 9 like the mobos....

[/ QUOTE ]
That is assuming she has an engine. Believe it or not, sails are actually a "safe" means of propulsion and were around long before engines. Just because there are now boats with engines and no sails doesn't mean that people have to stop sailing.