In what circumstances should sail give way to power ?

[fireball]

I meant that a buoyed channel doesn't always indicate a narrow channel.

Why does everyone think in terms of black and white?

I'm sailing therefore all the mobos must keep out of my way.
I'm motoring up a marked channel therefore I must be restricted and therefore standon vessel.

It is not logical nor seaman like to make these huge assumptions. A lot of helms (both saily boat and mobos) need to remove their blinkers and actually see what is going on around them - they might actually see there are others who are negatively affected by their actions.

 

[victoraspey]

[ QUOTE ]
So the real issue is who in those circumstances is the stand on vessel.

In those circumstances the yacht has a duty to pass to port and not act as the stand on vessel

[/ QUOTE ]

That is how I see it. But on half a dozen occasions yachts have demanded I give way whilst on stb side in the Hamble. They act as the stand on vessel under the regs. Rule 9 should apply unless yachties can argue that the Hamble is not a narrow channel. They cant. That is the law - full stop, end of story.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the real issue is who in those circumstances is the stand on vessel.

In those circumstances the yacht has a duty to pass to port and not act as the stand on vessel

[/ QUOTE ]

That is how I see it. But on half a dozen occasions yachts have demanded I give way whilst on stb side in the Hamble. They act as the stand on vessel under the regs. Rule 9 should apply unless yachties can argue that the Hamble is not a narrow channel. They cant. That is the law - full stop, end of story.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have misplaced your full stop again - you can't amend the rules.

You also don't seem to realise that the stand on vessel is stand on to all vessels not just motor boats, it includes other sailing boats - boats are manoeuvrable and under the rules the identified ones are sometimes obliged to slow down or manoeuvre around others - now that's the law.

Just as you will sometimes come across a stationary motorboat on "your" side of the channel waiting to enter a marina or fuel berth, you will sometimes come across a yacht tacking. Your responsibilty is the same, you slow down and wait for it to move or you go round it .

 

[fireball]

So .... I'll reitterate my question ...

What constitutes a narrow channel?

My answer: (and sorry MC ... I'll stick to Solent references as that is the area I know best ....)

It cannot be a fixed size - a narrow channel to a X Channel ferry is not narrow for a 30' leisure craft. Therefore a narrow channel is dependant on the ability of the vessel that is navigating it.

A narrow channel exists where the vessel can only navigate safely within the narrow channel, so what constitutes navigation? The ability to follow the colregs and act as the give way vessel on demand, within the confines of the channel.

So, what is the expectation for a give way vessel - the ability to manoever without putting the crew or vessel at risk.
Well, I know that the ferries can swing on the spot - but is that considered a manouver? Or should it be considered that they need to be able to manouver whilst proceeding at a safe speed?

With the assumption that any manouver must be able to be carried out whilst travelling at a safe speed then you need to consider what the turning circle is for the vessel... as a suggestion ..... can you carry out a 180 turn or 90 port and 90 starboard in the confines of the channel whilst travelling at a safe speed?

What is a safe speed then? It is a speed in which you can carry out the above manouver ... aaaaghhh circular references!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[fireball]

Woah .... take off your blinkers ... you keep referring to your narrow channel that you're navigating in, but you have yet to justify why you consider it a narrow channel .... the yacht that you believe should be keeping out of your way can obviously tack up it ... can you not motor a similar path? If so, is it not true that you are, in fact NOT operating in a narrow channel?

 

[l'escargot]

And I would suggest that in most cases a boat motoring in a narrow channel is more manoeuvrable than a boat sailing - they can go back wards or head straight into the wind to start with. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[DAKA]

[ QUOTE ]

did you realise that (certainly in chi harbour anyway) vessels under sail do not have a speed restriction?

[/ QUOTE ]


That is not true either is it /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


You missed out ' racing ' ALL others must comply with the speed restriction INCLUDING the pre start scramble .

The Chichester HM has defined all Channels with swinging boats are Narrow channels

Not that he has any real authority in that respect.

 

[victoraspey]

[ QUOTE ]
you can't amend the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rule 9 applies to yachts sailing up the Hamble. They should not act as the stand on vessel when tacking and I am on stb side motoring. Can we agree on this???The thread says in what circumstances should sail give way to power and i identified a rule that in my experience the yachties consistently fail to honour.

 

[fireball]

Erm - when did you last read the byelaws?

[ QUOTE ]
The master of any power-driven vessel shall not,
subject to the requirements of maintaining adequate
steerage way and control, suffer or cause her to be
navigated or driven in the harbour at a speed exceeding
eight knots through, on or over the water, unless the
consent in writing of the Harbourmaster has previously
been obtained.

[/ QUOTE ]

which excludes any vessel under sail ... racing or not. So it is true .... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I could not find any reference to narrow channels in the byelaws, however I believe the harbour office has requested that saily boats navigate through the moorings with care so not to cause vessels under motor to have to navigate outside the channel created by the moorings ...

 

[fireball]

Rule 9 does not mention the Hamble so how can it automatically apply to the Hamble.

 

[DAKA]

2007 Harbour guide.

Agreed it is a guide and not Law but you will find it in there.

 

[victoraspey]

[ QUOTE ]
I could not find any reference to narrow channels in the byelaws, however I believe the harbour office has requested that saily boats navigate through the moorings with care so not to cause vessels under motor to have to navigate outside the channel created by the moorings ...


[/ QUOTE ]

mmm.... I have been forced outside the line of moorings in chichester harbour on more than 1 occasion. Thanks for that I will quote this bye law when that happens again. Relevent to the thread as well. good work......

 

[boatone]

[ QUOTE ]
The Chichester HM has defined all Channels with swinging boats are Narrow channels

Not that he has any real authority in that respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a strange comment! Of course he has.....read colregs 1b:

1(b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm with you on this, victor and so was Yachtmaster Examiner Robert Avis (sadly now RIP) when he was on my boat a few years ago. We were navigating out of the Hamble River holding well to the starboard side and there was a yacht tacking up the fairway. I thought there was a risk of collision so, as power gives way to sail, I went to alter course but Robert told me to maintain our course as, in his view, the Hamble fairway was a narrow channel and nobody could seriously argue otherwise. We passed close to the yacht and received a volley of abuse from the helmsman. Robert hailed them on the VHF and gave the skipper a lecture on the ColRegs and narrow channels. It was delicious to hear the yacht skipper grovel

 

[victoraspey]

[ QUOTE ]
Rule 9 does not mention the Hamble so how can it automatically apply to the Hamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you ought do do a poll and ask if peeps think the hamble would be regarded as a narrow channel under the col regs. Are you seriously suggesting the col regs should list every geographical area within them???

 

[andyball]

Blimey Victor - forced outside?

can honestly say that's never happened to me in hundreds of hours bimbling around chich harbour. I've chosen to move outside when safe/convenient to do so. Had a few sailys give the impression they'd have preferred it if my mobo didn't exist in the same space/time as them. Sometimes you can't be pushed around & most saily types seem fine with it.

Maybe they're confused by the low wash of your motorcats?

 

[boatone]

Read Rule 1 for gawds sake!

Last time I looked the Hamble was still a water connected with the high seas!!!!!

 

[fireball]

Ah - so it is ... Rules booklet
[ QUOTE ]
NARROW CHANNELS (RULE 9)
All boats should keep to the right, and as close to the edge of the channel as is
practical. Anchoring in a narrow channel breaks rule 9 as well as risking a serious
accident.
The term narrow channel is relative and depends upon a vessels’ means of
propulsion, size, manoeuvrability and the prevailing conditions. For instance all
vessels should treat mooring fairways as narrow channels whereas the main
channels may only be considered narrow channels by large vessels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sensible definition for the tightly packed areas of moorings in Chi harbour ... I do note that the open fariways are excluded from this blanket definition .... so once you're out past Bosham channel from Chi basin you're fair game!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Or ... once out past that South Cardinal splitting the Emsworth channel to Langstone ....

 

[victoraspey]

Try around the entrance when hayling sailing club has some big regatta or something.

 

[andyball]

yes- been there many times.

you did say forced outside a run of moorings tho.

praps I'm just lucky eh - but think you'll find the fishing boats returning have little issue with yachts either - busy entrance or not. possible that if a mobo slow down looking like he doesn't have a clue where to place himself - the yachts'll just carry on regardless.