In what circumstances should sail give way to power ?

[DAKA]

Thanks Rick,

I will definitely use it next time I m there.
Cheers
Pete



Despite some comments from sailors I m still not so sure I will use an anchor ball/light in Port Solent etc
I presume that they were taking the ....

 

[clivew05]

Umm I know that there is a lot of Pee taking in this thread but ... as already stated - if a raggie has his engine running whilst under way (charging or not) then he is subject to the same rules as a mobo, and therefore does not have right of way - yes even if sails are up ... they are irrelevant ... Whilst I am a mobo'y I do have a lot of friends that are raggies and even they can get pretty peed off sometimes with other raggies when the push the rules to the limit - having said that - it is simply a case of understanding what a raggie can and cannot do and I would suggest a day out on one (day course) to understand this - I have and now have a better insight into what they should, can and cant do - so I know when one is pushing its luck .....

With regards to this thread though - I will have to watch out now when in my berth - although nicely tucked up between 2 finger berths and protected from passing raggies it would appear from the tone of the posts that I should

a) leave my navigation lights on all the time at dusk.dark even when moored in my berth to allow passing raggies to see that I am there
b) display a black ball to say that I am stationary - even if the anchor is not dropped and I am tied with warps and spings firmly in place
c) fit sensors to detect passing raggies wired to my auto pilot (with auto untie mode) so that my boat can sneek out of a raggies way (leave my berth manouvre around the raggie and then return to my berth)

Alternatively - Ill fit sails to my Mobo, and leave the engines switched off ..... if you cant beat them join them

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
... if a raggie has his engine running whilst under way (charging or not) then he is subject to the same rules as a mobo...

[/ QUOTE ]
Not unless the boat is being propelled by the engine, "propelled" being the operative word. A sailing boat with his sails up and engine running, but in neutral, is still a sailing boat.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
Umm I know that there is a lot of Pee taking in this thread but ... as already stated - if a raggie has his engine running whilst under way (charging or not) then he is subject to the same rules as a mobo

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that just running the engine does NOT make a sailing boat a 'power driven vessel'. It has to be actually propelling them:

[ QUOTE ]

(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rick

 

[KevB]

[ QUOTE ]
Not unless the boat is being propelled by the engine, "propelled" being the operative word. A sailing boat with his sails up and engine running, but in neutral, is still a sailing boat.



[/ QUOTE ]

If that being the case all the raggie has to do is slip it into neutral and claim it was never in gear. Of course I know no raggie would do that. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Ifraser]

Not sure if this has already been covered as I haven't the time to read all the posts... but the ball is an anchor ball not a mooring ball. Its not required in a marina or on a recognised swinging mooring only at anchor. As for sail giving way to power don't forget overtaking...which can happen in harbours with high speed dinghies.... cheers Iain

 

[DAKA]

[ QUOTE ]
[Not unless the boat is being propelled by the engine, "propelled" being the operative word. A sailing boat with his sails up and engine running, but in neutral, is still a sailing boat.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you have given all mobos the breathing space they require now:-

Based on the same principal all I need to do is knock the gear lever into neutral and hoist flag

"vessel not under command"

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
...Not unless the boat is being propelled by the engine, "propelled" being the operative word. A sailing boat with his sails up and engine running, but in neutral, is still a sailing boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry yes should have quantified that statement - I think you can usualy tell if the sail boat is not sailing by looking at its bum - if there is a tell tail wash from the prop area, then must be a mobo in disguise, on the same note though can a mobo say that they were not under power if they knock the gears to neutral and just "drift" along .... certainly the restiction is still the same no control without being under power - and therefore you could claim to be a sailing vessel without your engines on - as it seems a sail boat can go along without sails - so therefore by reason can a mobo do the same thing ...

There you have it we are all equals - so everyone should give way to everyone else and we are all covered .. and .. yes we can all stick two fingers up at each other, have a moan that the river actually belongs solely to us and stuff everyone else ....

 

[jaws]

I think this is all just semantics now. If you have your engine on whether it's in gear or not you are under power and can use your power to maneuver the vessel out of dangerous situations. The whole point of the power gives way to sail is based on the fact that a raggie with the washing up is restricted in it's ability to maneuver. Engines on enables you to maneuver.

Any mobo can stick their throttles into neutral and claim they're not under power in that case.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
...If you have your engine on whether it's in gear or not you are under power...

[/ QUOTE ]
'Fraid not. If the engine isn't engaged (thus not being "propelled") and the boat is sailing then it isn't under power - that's the rules. We don't make them, you've just got to observe them. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Not unless the boat is being propelled by the engine, "propelled" being the operative word. A sailing boat with his sails up and engine running, but in neutral, is still a sailing boat.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you have given all mobos the breathing space they require now:-

Based on the same principal all I need to do is knock the gear lever into neutral and hoist flag

"vessel not under command"

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
You were a bit slow picking up on that one - but then I doubt many Mobo's would have flags onboard (or know which was the right one) just like they always seem short of fenders, warps, anchor balls...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Talbot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Overtaking.........The latter rule is invariably forgotten by a lot of raggies



[/ QUOTE ]

I dont forget. It's just that it doesn't happen very often!

[/ QUOTE ]

ah - yes - more applicable to multihull owners!

no seriously for a moment, it does happen in rivers particularly.

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
...If you have your engine on whether it's in gear or not you are under power...

[/ QUOTE ]

And our survey said ...... ding! correct according to the col regs ... doesnt matter if its not in gear it is clearly stated with engines running - you are under power ......

My thoughts exactly - therefore whats good for the goose is good for the gander - if a yacht can have its engine running and claim its not under power then so can a mobo - as said above rules is rules and being a raggie is no excuse to ignore them cos it suits you at the time (which I have to say seems to be the case more often than not /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...If you have your engine on whether it's in gear or not you are under power...

[/ QUOTE ]

And our survey said ...... ding! correct according to the col regs ... doesnt matter if its not in gear it is clearly stated with engines running - you are under power ...... ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which ColRegs are you reading then?

 

[Skyva_2]

Where did you find the words 'with engines running'?

3
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

[/pedant]

 

[DAKA]

But it was established it was being used to charge batteries and heat water


so it is under power /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[fireball]

Unless you direct the power in a specific direction to provide propulsion then it isn't under power!! I suppose you could use the stern shower as a weak sort of Thruster and claim restricted in ability to manoeuvre ...

 

[Skyva_2]

No, its not being propelled by machinery.....

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
But it was established it was being used to charge batteries and heat water


so it is under power /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it wasn't driving the shaft but it was driving an alternator. Therefore it wasn't propelling machinery at that time, it was in fact a generator. So it wasn't under power /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[fireball]

no - just underpowered !!