IN in EU or OUT from EU

[chanelyacht]

But engineering and production are in the EU, it's just that they are not in this country.

Brian

What utter nonsense.

Boatbuilding - Princess and Sunseeker both having record years. Quinqari Marine, Delta, Humber...
Engineering - JCB ( a leave campaigner), Caterpillar, etc.

"We don't make anything anymore" is a tired old refrain from people who can't be bothered to actually look.

 

[fergie_mac66]

But engineering and production are in the EU, it's just that they are not in this country.

The over 60's have seen it go, and may understand why, We hear motor vehicle is all time high, well just about 1970 level with 2017 prediction, but the market has grown 5 fold or more, so we have a greatly reduced figure based on available market.

We do not invest in manufacturing, this goes back to the 1950's, Germany did, to-day they still do, look at this site http://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/...d-d-incentives/r-and-d-grants-in-germany.html .............. then try to find a UK site offering the same finance to UK manufacturing.

Yacht building, Poland not that many years ago had nothing, now they make 15,000 yachts a year, it's big figures, production is the easy bit, it's the money and will that the problem.

Brian

Seem to recollect it was the allies who supplied the necessary so Germany could rebuild. Hmm what was that about Germany owing Greece wheelbarrows of money and other EU countries which they are not going to repay I forget now so does everybody else.Particularly the EU.

 

[halcyon]

What utter nonsense.

Boatbuilding - Princess and Sunseeker both having record years. Quinqari Marine, Delta, Humber...
Engineering - JCB ( a leave campaigner), Caterpillar, etc.

"We don't make anything anymore" is a tired old refrain from people who can't be bothered to actually look.

Perhaps reading the first part of the thread, would make sense of my response to you.

But having spent 20 years in engineering, and 35 years supplying equipment to production boat builders, yes I have seen a lot go, which kinda make it stand out to us.

Brian

 

[Daydream believer]

Getting back to the yachting industry. The world is seeing a saturation of yachts- just read the threads about prices for second hand boats & the problems of disposal. Can you really imagine going to a bank & asking to borrow £ 50M to start to produce something that is already saturating the market & is already being made to extremely efficient methods ( just look at Bavaria etc)
Is there any real profit return. I doubt it. Hanse (for instance) may be in profit now but was making losses for some years & lots of companies throughout the world have disappeared. Particularly in those areas where higher wages prevail. Technology can only account for so much labour cost then its own cost becomes the limiting factor. Companies such as Sunseeker have realigned themselves within the markets but can only do so for so long, so would one expect to see them still there in 20 years time -EU or no EU.

So what can we produce for the world yachting ( as opposed to shipping) market that the world might want? chandlery, resins & mats, design, marina parts, sails, marina construction, consultancy, masts & rigging---- repair services ( who will pay- us forumites?) the list goes on
We already do all this .
The companies will expand as best they can, or as the entrepreneurs see fit. Most of these companies are privately owned, I suspect, so there are limitations of size. I doubt that any really successful company will find it hard to raise the finance in this country provided they can produce a sensible business plan & demonstrate that they have the ability to see it through. The simple fact is that there is no point in risking large sums on ventures based on " passion" rather than good business sense.

There just is no home market with a population willing to buy British to support such a venture. We certainly cannot rely on the EU to give us that home market. The more likely reality is that we can rely on the EU to suppress our home market with over regulation to allow German & French producers to survive by manipulation of the rules

 

[Daydream believer]

When we talk about manufacturing it depends on what sort. Are we now discounting software engineering, electronics, Communications equipment ie satellite communications. These are all manufactured items but not heavy goods, like shipping for instance. Is it a bad thing that industry is adapting to the markets that we are able to compete in. High wages prevent us from making some large items & massive investment needed to change existing plants is difficult. Can one really see Port Talbot actually lasting. I have not been there but all the pictures make it look like a run down heap ready for the scrap yard. The investment required to renew it would be astronomical.

 

[fergie_mac66]

The problem with yachting in UK is in someway it's shrinking. The interest in the leisure side is still there but in times gone by UK was an Island in mentality and all parts of the country were totally immersed in shipping and boats because of the long history of being a seafaring nation. Everybody supported the RNLI, now half the country has lost that link, (shhh immigration not racist). Almost everybody knew someone who had a good.knowledge of the sea and sailing. Historical education should have a part in this because "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing—absolute nothing—half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing," he went on dreamily: "messing—about—in—boats; messing—".Half the country is frightened of the sea now, The yachting community are partly responsible for this,
I think all,absolutely all schools should have a duty to get children into a sailing dingy for a few basic lessons to impart, pleasure and the historical importance of the sea to a seafaring nation, it would encourage a new generation of potential customers.

Edit the erroneous impression that you need to spend an arm,a leg and a kidney to have a good time on the water, should be squashed A duck punt can be put on the water by someone very cheaply for little skill, Dylan has evidence.

 

[shan]

Are these EU generated ?

UK motor vehicle production volume

1960 ..... 1,811,000
1970 ..... 2.098,000
1996 - 1999 .... 1,900,000 + max 1,976,00.

Think VW in the 60's made 1,500,000 units now around 11,000,000, BMW in the 60's made Isetta's bubble cars now make 1,700,000 high end cars, Audi did not exist then.

Yet we are proud to have at the most optimistic stood still, in fact gone backwards, they were in the main UK owned in 1960.

In or out we have the same problem, lack of ambition.

Brian

I'd add to this: an inverted snobbery regarding success or wealth.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Maybe those small derelict fiberglass boats lieing round should be given to school who have the capability to do craft projects,vocational skills etc. to encourage a generation of new interest

Edit also maybe sea cadets with volunteers helpers

 

[maxi77]

Which nobody wanted.

Last year we manufactured 1.6 million.

Plus, the turnaround of car manufacturing was led by that well know EU country, Japan, with Honda and Nissan the first investors.

Once again, our best option came from outside the EU.

All because we gave them access to the EU market. Lose that and how long will they stay. Will they continue to expand in the UK.

 

[halcyon]

Seem to recollect it was the allies who supplied the necessary so Germany could rebuild. Hmm what was that about Germany owing Greece wheelbarrows of money and other EU countries which they are not going to repay I forget now so does everybody else.Particularly the EU.

Google Marshall Plan, US loaned to most countries, UK got the most and spent on infrastructure and nationalisation, Germany set up a low cost finance to industry, ended up repaying and some left.

Germany is still providing low cost or non repayable grants to firms, the UK gets fleeced by the banks.

Brian

 

[halcyon]

All because we gave them access to the EU market. Lose that and how long will they stay. Will they continue to expand in the UK.

You could say Edwards turned the corner when BL went into the black, then got move to BAs, Rover by 93 was the only European car firm with growing sales and we sold it, 2004 Rover had the blocks in place to expand and we allowed it to fold. What do we here though or worry about was a £54 million pension short fall, but ignore that it was less than 2003, or that Mini pension scheme had a £540 million short fall that year. Do not forget Jag / LR have been a major player in turning UK motor industry round, but financed with Indian money.

One common theme is someone else has taken the financial gamble, not us.

Brian

 

[Seven Spades]

We have weak politicians. The fact of the matter is that we hold all the cards and our politicians need to understand this as it will make them better at their job. We have a huge deficit to Europe and have been a net contributor since day one, we also control(or should) a huge part of Europe's fish stocks. Leaving the EU is not going to affect us at all, if as the doom sayers say the pound will crash after a brexit vote it will mean that Honda, Ford, Toyota etc are making cars for even less in the UK that they were before so they are hardly likely to want to switch to manufacturing in Belgium.

Leaving the EU frees us for the huge costs of supporting the EU political goliath and mess. It means we will be able to do simple things like instead of giving aid in cash, we can give aid in British goods. It is daft to give money to countries so that they can go and buy Land Cruisers when we should be giving them Land Rovers but EU rules prevent us from doing that. Well leaving the EU is about =putting this sort of thing right.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Yep if we stay in we are Doomed to go down the 'pan' eventually, gota go while we can !

Tis not really a matter, if some 'layabouts and 'got rich quick' types want to go where Edward went to sulk around while their money and health permits, escaping responsibilities and enjoying the Sunshine, while it lasts, to consider, is it ?

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Leaving the EU is not going to affect us at all, if as the doom sayers say the pound will crash after a brexit vote it will mean that Honda, Ford, Toyota etc are making cars for even less in the UK that they were before so they are hardly likely to want to switch to manufacturing in Belgium.

The problem with exporting manufacturing goods to EU if we get out from EU is that our goods (cars, etc) will carry a tariff which will make our exports uncompetitive. The EU is a huge internal market as well as able to negotiate externally. Also, competitiveness encourages new technologies and high productivity and hopefully, new UK Yachting Companies will emerge from the ashes. Just think of the new technologies that can be used to manufacture 40ft yachts at half price of Bavarias, for example, new materials, or new production methods using additive manufacturing (3D printing).

 

[Kelpie]

I'd add to this: an inverted snobbery regarding success or wealth.

Not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate?

 

[Seven Spades]

The problem with exporting manufacturing goods to EU if we get out from EU is that our goods (cars, etc) will carry a tariff which will make our exports uncompetitive. The EU is a huge internal market as well as able to negotiate externally. Also, competitiveness encourages new technologies and high productivity and hopefully, new UK Yachting Companies will emerge from the ashes. Just think of the new technologies that can be used to manufacture 40ft yachts at half price of Bavarias, for example, new materials, or new production methods using additive manufacturing (3D printing).

You are assuming that they would impose tariffs on us. I don't accept that concept, the EU would have more to lose than us we are a net importer from the EU so we could easily impose tariffs on their goods. in this case it really cuts both ways only it cuts more one way than another. A Ford Mustang starts at £16500 in the USA, it would not be difficult to impose tariffs on German cars and encourage Ford to fill the gap with cheap US cars. It wouldn't come to that The EU will want a free trade agreement as much as we do. the last thing they want to do it lose the UK as a market.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

You are assuming that they would impose tariffs on us. I don't accept that concept, the EU would have more to lose than us we are a net importer from the EU so we could easily impose tariffs on their goods. in this case it really cuts both ways only it cuts more one way than another. A Ford Mustang starts at £16500 in the USA, it would not be difficult to impose tariffs on German cars and encourage Ford to fill the gap with cheap US cars. It wouldn't come to that The EU will want a free trade agreement as much as we do. the last thing they want to do it lose the UK as a market.

I am pleased to know that the professional young generation who are running this country at present will not do what you are proposing or the UK will go bankrupt within a few years.

 

[shan]

Not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate?

How often do you read about how anyone wealthy or successful must have become so by treading over the 'working class' or my other favourite is that anyone who has attended Eton or Cambridge or public school must be a plonker? This attitude is quite unique to the UK.

 

[RAI]

This tariff system seems a bit confused. Isn't usual that importers pay tariffs to the importing country, usually imposed to protect home industry. So, after Brexit, when somebody in the UK wants to buy a German made car (say) he might have to pay the import tariff in the price. That money goes to the UK government. In response to a UK tariff on EU cars, the EU countries might add a tariff of some sort to UK financial services, for example, as that is something the UK will want to export. How much tariff on each could be subject to a trade agreement.

So saying the EU won't want to put tariffs on EU built cars is true, they are unlikely to place an export tariff on them. It's more likely that the UK government will impose an import tariff on them (or threaten to) to negotiate a smaller EU import tariff on UK products and services. Then there is the VAT that both sides add or remove. Then there are the extra delays for customs to clear stuff in and out. I can see why a free market is attractive financially.

Now the UK imports more than it exports, so there is money in the trade deficit, for the government. Plus they can claim to be protecting local industry. So I don't understand how Brexiteers can claim that trade with the EU will be unaffected.

 

[maxi77]

This tariff system seems a bit confused. Isn't usual that importers pay tariffs to the importing country, usually imposed to protect home industry. So, after Brexit, when somebody in the UK wants to buy a German made car (say) he might have to pay the import tariff in the price. That money goes to the UK government. In response to a UK tariff on EU cars, the EU countries might add a tariff of some sort to UK financial services, for example, as that is something the UK will want to export. How much tariff on each could be subject to a trade agreement.

So saying the EU won't want to put tariffs on EU built cars is true, they are unlikely to place an export tariff on them. It's more likely that the UK government will impose an import tariff on them (or threaten to) to negotiate a smaller EU import tariff on UK products and services. Then there is the VAT that both sides add or remove. Then there are the extra delays for customs to clear stuff in and out. I can see why a free market is attractive financially.

Now the UK imports more than it exports, so there is money in the trade deficit, for the government. Plus they can claim to be protecting local industry. So I don't understand how Brexiteers can claim that trade with the EU will be unaffected.

From bitter experience it is not just tariffs, even with so called free trade there are many barriers to trade. The only real free trade is the Single Market which gets rid of almost all the non tariff barriers but does need the same trading laws in all member countries hence Brussels made law.