ICC needed or not?

[Clancy Moped]

How do I find someone to do my ICC on my own boat

Contract the RYA.

 

[capnsensible]

You probably used your yachtmaster ticket to get the ICC on the nod.

Of course. Thing is I was also an assessor so I know how the whole thing works. With details on your card in different languages it is very useful and hopefully, like your insurance, never used. It's how I described it to the 'candidates' and they felt it made sense. Clearly more so before Day Skipper became a card with an identifying photo.

I could have been an Inter Galactic Starship Commander, but if I got dinged by a motor boat in Greece (say) an ICC was far more useful certificate.

 

[LittleSister]

International Certificate of Competence - Wikipedia

. . . and the RYA page that jlavery linked to in post #2 gives a lot more info on its status in various countries around Europe & Med.
Evidence of Competence Abroad | boating abroad | RYA

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Is that what you are basing your advice on? Or do you have an official document to say icc is not necessary if you own the boat?

No I'm basing my opinion on my understanding of the regulations and knowledge of which countries are signatories and my own experience. As Captainsenible said, it's not difficult to get an ICC unless you have no qualification and are miles from someone who can test you. But just saying you need an ICC to sail in the MED is not true. You need to comply with international regulations and perhaps those of the coastal state you are sailing in, some of which couldn't give a monkeys about an ICC and other who may accept it or other qualifications as proof of competence.

 

[Mister E]

I will be sailing the Med this year for the first=st time in decades. I’ve been sailing and owning boats for 40+years and have never needed or got a ticket, but I suspect our continental pen pushers want to see paperwork? Do I need the ICC cert?

I’m not going to sit around for a week to learn what I surely know already, so can I get the paperwork quicker, as in like a half a nanosecond ideally? Or do I need to not worry and that I should just tell the bureaucrats that under the Red Duster (which I fly) that we don’t need your stupid paperwork so F off back to your bureaucratic and miserable hell hole?

Buck do you think the above will work if asked?

 

[billskip]

saying you need an ICC to sail in the MED is not true.

When you visit another country, in most circumstances (in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s country of registration (the Flag State).

 

[Trident]

I booked Porto Montenegro for last winter and was told I must have an ICC for their waters and that I would also now need it for Croatia .
Fortunately I have one - had to UPS it to Spain in 2013 before I could enter Portugal because I had been told all marinas there MUST see it - of course on arrival they said they didn't need it ...
If you have Day Skipper you get it for free from the RYA and if you don't is quick and cheap to do stand alone so why would you not for the sake of a stress free time - that is I assume why you go sailing anyway isn't it?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Buck do you think the above will work if asked?

no

 

[Buck Turgidson]

When you visit another country, in most circumstances (in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s country of registration (the Flag State).

That does not say in all circumstances you will does it? Nor does it specify that having an ICC would even comply.

 

[billskip]

If it’s your own boat under British regulation you don’t need an ICC

I don't agree with this^^^

That does not say in all circumstances you will does it? Nor does it specify that having an ICC would even comply.

I don't know what you are trying to define.
It's quite clear to me that an ICC is required as the possibility it will be asked for exists.
Until you present clear evidence that all countries with Mediterranean shore say its not required, I can't agree with you, and I know by experience it was requested in Greece and in Spanish waters.

 

[Tranona]

That does not say in all circumstances you will does it? Nor does it specify that having an ICC would even comply.

Exactly. Everything relies on "comity" - that is one state respecting the rules of another. In some cases states specifically enact laws which negate comity - a good example is Portugal with respect to equipment on boats in certain circumstances and Greece and Croatia in respect of skippering boats under their flag. However in many cases there is no actual law or regulation that overrides comity as examples on this thread illustrate as responsibility for such matters is devolved to local rather than national bodies who may well make up their own "rules". Again several examples here.

Because this leads to uncertainty and the consequences of falling foul of local officialdom can be a PITA it is sensible to have an ICC - which was never intended to be equivalent to local qualifications, merely a test of basic competence as defined in Resolution 40 which in turn was derived from requirements for navigating the CEVNI controlled waterways in Europe. Very messy, but there does not seem to be any appetite amongst the maritime nations to put things on a formal legal footing. The "English" are renowned for being able to deal with ambiguity (compared with our European friends whose laws are based on codified Roman law) - but some of us still seem to want to see black and white written down rules for every situation that might arise where there is no chance of that ever happening.

 

[Zing]

Go to Canada instead. Not only do they speak much the same language but would accept your argument for not needing a cert of competence (or would a few years ago).

Some years ago Canada introduced a minimum standard of competence for all boat handlers. At the Toronto boat show they were pushing the written exam - no practical needed. I got into conversation with one of their maritime officers and asked if the ICC was acceptable. They did not know what it was. I followed up asking if I needed the Canadian certificate as I would be on my own British registered boat that did not require a cert of competence. I was told that they would follow flag state requirements even if it meant no certificate.

And this is the point that eluded many above. The flag determines crewing and training requirements. If a country (and most are) signed up to the UNCLOS then by doing so they defer to the flag state. There should be no requirement to force a local law onto foreign ships (like my red duster ship). It is they that are breaking the law in doing so, not me in not having their stupid ticket, that proves absolutely nothing.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

And this is the point that eluded many above. The flag determines crewing and training requirements. If a country (and most are) signed up to the UNCLOS then by doing so they defer to the flag state. There should be no requirement to force a local law onto foreign ships (like my red duster ship). It is they that are breaking the law in doing so, not me in not having their stupid ticket, that proves absolutely nothing.

That is only true in international waters and innocent passage THROUGH territorial waters (i.e. a passage neither starting nor ending within a country's territorial bounds). It is not true for a boat in territorial or internal waters (i.e. where most of us sail, and all harbours and anchorages). As Tranona has mentioned, most nations observe "comity", but it is a) not universal and b) custom rather than law. When you are in a harbour or anchorage, the law of the nation concerned is THE law, not the Law of the Sea.

 

[billskip]

but some of us still seem to want to see black and white written down rules for every situation that might arise where there is no chance of that ever happening.

It's not necessarily we want to see black and white written down, it's more a case of showing officials what they want to see for ease of life.
You want to go sailing to try and dictate your rights, go ahead, some of us go sailing for the pleasure of sailing...
I think it's bad advice to try and convince people they best argue with officials rather than carry a document that is easy to get to satisfy officials in another country.

 

[billskip]

And this is the point that eluded many above. The flag determines crewing and training requirements. If a country (and most are) signed up to the UNCLOS then by doing so they defer to the flag state. There should be no requirement to force a local law onto foreign ships (like my red duster ship). It is they that are breaking the law in doing so, not me in not having their stupid ticket, that proves absolutely nothing.

If you think you are so right, why are you bothering to state your opinions on here? is it to try and convince others of your anarchy?
Personally I prefer to sail amongst those with at least a minimum degree of ability.

 

[Tranona]

It's not necessarily we want to see black and white written down, it's more a case of showing officials what they want to see for ease of life.
You want to go sailing to try and dictate your rights, go ahead, some of us go sailing for the pleasure of sailing...
I think it's bad advice to try and convince people they best argue with officials rather than carry a document that is easy to get to satisfy officials in another country.

I am getting really P***** off with you misrepresenting what I say. Nowhere do I say anything about "rights" or arguing with officials - exactly the opposite. I am just reflecting reality. Some people have difficulty with ambiguity and want things written down, but it is not like that for the reasons I explain. I have NEVER given advice that anyone should argue with officials in these sorts of situations. There are however situations where the "rules" are clearly written down and officials ignore them and then there is a case for challenging. Greece is a fine example where officials wrongly apply EU law and have been successfully challenged.

 

[Tranona]

And this is the point that eluded many above. The flag determines crewing and training requirements. If a country (and most are) signed up to the UNCLOS then by doing so they defer to the flag state. There should be no requirement to force a local law onto foreign ships (like my red duster ship). It is they that are breaking the law in doing so, not me in not having their stupid ticket, that proves absolutely nothing.

This is only partly true - it is pretty clear that states CAN impose their own rules on visitors in their territorial waters and there are several examples given here to which you could add Chile, Argentina and even New Zealand as well known examples. It is unwise to ignore that and better to recognise it and be prepared, even though in most cases you will not be challenged - but when you are you will be glad you were prepared.

 

[billskip]

This is only partly true - it is pretty clear that states CAN impose their own rules on visitors in their territorial waters and there are several examples given here to which you could add Chile, Argentina and even New Zealand as well known examples. It is unwise to ignore that and better to recognise it and be prepared, even though in most cases you will not be challenged - but when you are you will be glad you were prepared.

That's much more sensible.

 

[billskip]

I am getting really P***** off with you

I don't have a problem with that.

 

[Tranona]

I don't have a problem with that.

Does that mean you are not going to misrepresent what I write in future?