ICC By Assessment?

[capnsensible]

I am a bit slow.

However it never crossed my mind that an ICC carried the same responsibilities as a surgeon nor of being a crew member on a submarine. I certainly would never equate my nautical skills as being as critical as that of a surgeon (nor a crew member on a submarine) - my own importance is pretty small in comparison.

Humbly,

Jonathan

You spotted the perspective there. Well done.

 

[Never Grumble]

I have an ICC for power driven vessels ... its all I am allowed with my RN Watchkeeping Cert and Yachtmaster (Power). I got it as being a member of the RYA it was free. What I really need is one for sailing and probably will have to do it just to be able to charter a yacht in the Med. I spoke to someone at a sailing school who implied the standard for the ICC was less than a day skip, its a bit galling to have to spend money and a day or two doing something of limited value, especially as we sail our own yacht regularly.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I have an ICC for power driven vessels ... its all I am allowed with my RN Watchkeeping Cert and Yachtmaster (Power). I got it as being a member of the RYA it was free. What I really need is one for sailing and probably will have to do it just to be able to charter a yacht in the Med. I spoke to someone at a sailing school who implied the standard for the ICC was less than a day skip, its a bit galling to have to spend money and a day or two doing something of limited value, especially as we sail our own yacht regularly.

The instructor who assessed me reckoned that ICC and Day Skipper were pretty much equivalent, and that there was no point in Day Skipper if you'd got ICC; of course Day Skipper gives you ICC. Certainly the syllabus is very similar; I think that Day Skipper assumes you're starting from zero, but ICC assumes you're already at or close to the required standard. One is a course, the other is an examination.

 

[Never Grumble]

The instructor who assessed me reckoned that ICC and Day Skipper were pretty much equivalent, and that there was no point in Day Skipper if you'd got ICC; of course Day Skipper gives you ICC. Certainly the syllabus is very similar; I think that Day Skipper assumes you're starting from zero, but ICC assumes you're already at or close to the required standard. One is a course, the other is an examination.

The problem for me is to go and do the ICC is a bit of a backwards step.

 

[Skylark]

Correct me if am wrong

An ICC is required to charter a yacht in some, many countries, in the Med.

I have raced for decades, participated in RORC Blue Water races, been skipper and owner (with my wife) of a yacht winning CHS annual championships 2 years in a row at a prestigous yacht club, Since 'retiring' from racing have owned a 38' cat for over 20 years, made a number of passages across Bass Strait to SW Tasmania and write occasionally about anchoring

But I need to pay to obtain an ICC.

Yet though I need to pay for said certificate - my fellow certificate owners do not need to know how to anchor - and an absence of knowledge of anchoring is a root cause of concern for many - check on anchoring threads on this forum, Cruisers Forum etc.

dgadee - I'm with you.

Jonathan

The OP was asking for clarification regarding categories 4c and 4d, also for a recommendation for an assessment centre. Your post doesn’t seem to have addresses his questions ?

Some years ago I taught a very nice and highly skilled Polish surgeon to sail. After qualifying bin his own country, he moved to France.

He had to re qualify.

Then he moved to the UK.

He had yo re qualify.

In an earlier career whenever I joined a different class of submarine, I had to re qualifying.

Asking someonne who needs an international certificate of competence to conform to an international standard doesnt seem onerous to me. And if one is a super experienced sailor it won't take long, will it?

I suppose it depends on how highly one rates one's own importance?

Does your now UK based surgeon friend remove chips from the shoulders of highly skilled and experienced but unqualified sailors? There seems to be quite a need ?

 

[Neeves]

The OP was asking for clarification regarding categories 4c and 4d, also for a recommendation for an assessment centre. Your post doesn’t seem to have addresses his questions ?

I'm a Scot - I object to sending money unnecessarily and wasting time - its part of our genetics.

No? - need

The question of the OP was amply answered by those in the know.

I was just taking opportunity for a whinge (which the forum allows (without the need to start a new thread - nor restrict answers to the OP).. The number of chips is indicative of some negativity of the ICC, I am not alone. The reaction to the whinge was interesting - its always nice to hear the views of others.

But I do note you have offered the OP no answers either - you too seem to be.....wingeing. . Pots and kettles come to mind....

Jonathan

 

[dgadee]

The OP was asking for clarification regarding categories 4c and 4d, also for a recommendation for an assessment centre. Your post doesn’t seem to have addresses his questions ?

Does your now UK based surgeon friend remove chips from the shoulders of highly skilled and experienced but unqualified sailors? There seems to be quite a need ?

Thank you for adding so much to the debate. Very welcome.

 

[Skylark]

Thank you for adding so much to the debate. Very welcome.

But I do note you have offered the OP no answers either - you too seem to be.....wingeing. . Pots and kettles come to mind....

Jonathan

On the contrary. I endeavoured to answer the OP question by making a positive and constructive suggestion, see post number 16.

I gather that you are both happy to not have an ICC, which is absolutely fine. I just don’t get why you should become so hot under the collar about the subject, especially given that the post was generated by someone who clearly does want one. ?

 

[dgadee]

An ICC is a citizen's right to possess should he have knowledge and skill sufficient for the task. The RYA has a monopoly on provision for sailing ICC's in the UK. It offers a single path which some (including me) do not wish to undertake. It uses that monoploy to benefit itself and its franchise partners. There should be other options.

I've just repeated my earlier comments because I don't want my views to be misrepresented.

 

[dunedin]

An ICC is a citizen's right to possess should he have knowledge and skill sufficient for the task. The RYA has a monopoly on provision for sailing ICC's in the UK. It offers a single path which some (including me) do not wish to undertake. It uses that monoploy to benefit itself and its franchise partners. There should be other options.

I've just repeated my earlier comments because I don't want my views to be misrepresented.

But
(a) It is not a right, it is an opportunity - to get an ICC if you can demonstrate that you meet the competency requiremnts for this INTERNATIONAL qualification;
(b) There is no monopoly over the assessment for the certificate - a wide range of qualified examiners;
(c) There is not a monopoly in terms of UK issuers of ICC certificates, as others have pointed out on here.
(d) You have provided no evidence to support your inflammatory statements about the RYA‘s intentions or actions.
(e) If you think there should be other options take the initiative and set up these other options (positive actions by you would be more effective than repeated words of criticism about actions by others).

To many of us the ICC is easy enough to get IF we want it and have the skills. It ain’t broke so no need to fix something which is optional anyway.
As you state that don’t want to undertake an ICC assessment, and it is not compulsory so don’t need an ICC, this should not be a problem. All good.

PS. I have no connection with the RYA other than as an ordinary member, and holder of an ICC.

 

[dgadee]

But
(a) It is not a right, it is an opportunity - to get an ICC if you can demonstrate that you meet the competency requiremnts for this INTERNATIONAL qualification;
(b) There is no monopoly over the assessment for the certificate - a wide range of qualified examiners;
(c) There is not a monopoly in terms of UK issuers of ICC certificates, as others have pointed out on here.
(d) You have provided no evidence to support your inflammatory statements about the RYA‘s intentions or actions.
(e) If you think there should be other options take the initiative and set up these other options (positive actions by you would be more effective than repeated words of criticism about actions by others).

To many of us the ICC is easy enough to get IF we want it and have the skills. It ain’t broke so no need to fix something which is optional anyway.
As you state that don’t want to undertake an ICC assessment, and it is not compulsory so don’t need an ICC, this should not be a problem. All good.

PS. I have no connection with the RYA other than as an ordinary member, and holder of an ICC.

It is a right.

It is broke.

I am currently on my way to Turkey. I may (or may not) require an ICC there. Should I want to go on internal waterways in Europe I would require this.

 

[dunedin]

It is a right.

It is broke.

I am currently on my way to Turkey. I may (or may not) require an ICC there. Should I want to go on internal waterways in Europe I would require this.

Well do your assessment and pay a few quid. In the costs of cruising the ICC is just a few beers.

 

[dgadee]

Well do your assessment and pay a few quid. In the costs of cruising the ICC is just a few beers.

You pay and I'll do it.

 

[Neeves]

You pay and I'll do it.

The charter fleets use it as an indication of competence - and rightly so. Its basically all they have.

If I recall threads on this forum, and others, there is a constant comment on the inability of people to anchor, whether its a Med moor or anchoring. I don't recall noticing other comments on people inability to know who has rights, the inability of people to recognise lights, or an inability to trim sails - the root cause of complaint is ... anchoring. Charter parties invariably anchor, again whether anchoring 'freely' or using a Med moor.

The gaining a of an ICC will suggest to the charter party, or the skipper of the group, that he or she knows all they need to know - leading to complacency, and results in focussed complain on this and other forum. People complain - novices anchor too close together, novices use in adequate scope, novices don't power set.

How much would it take to include anchoring in the syllabus?

They need anchoring skill every night on a charter

It is not part of the schedule of skills that are tested.

Beggars belief.

Charter boats are not going to sail at night - but lights are part of the schedule.....

It also beggars belief that people, apparently, don't care.

I'm not going to change the world - but if all of those who support the certificate spoke up about its omissions there might be a bit more support for the certificate. If those who benefit, its part of their income as an assessor, spoke up - instead of defending wholeheartedly the content of the, flawed, certificate it might have more value and support.

But don't argue with me, I don't matter at all - I'll just whinge a bit more - why not direct your time and energy toward having a better certificate with content that justifies the cost - or - if you want to argue with me - tell me why the certificate does not include anchoring (but includes lights at night)

Jonathan


I'd also criticise the charter companies for equipping their yachts with CQRs, Deltas, Brittany, Bugel and Bruce - no wonder people drag - but that is a different story. I'd like to think the majority here know the benefits of the new designs of anchors - they set without particular skill, they are dependable and they do not drag. A decent anchor over the charter income of a year would cost peanuts - but the enjoyment that they would support would, provide good memories that would last for years