ICC By Assessment?

[Tranona]

Why not the CA? You don't need to demonstrate skills at a particular point in time. You could do it by sailing CV. Take a different approach! The RYA is not sailing, just one part of it.

Why not ask the CA why they have not applied to the govt for permission to issue ICC - although I guess the answer has already been given. They do not offer qualifications that are recognised as meeting the requirements of the ICC unlike the RYA and BSA. They do not have the infrastructure of qualified assessors - and perhaps the most important reason - what is in it for them when there are already hundreds of RYA and MCA qualified assessors already covering the market. The stand alone assessment market is very small except in concentrated areas such as the schools that operate within the charter market and most UK schools do it as a sideline.

If you want to bring in economic theory - assemble your evidence of market failure which is what is needed to challenge a monopoly - and remember the real monopoly here is the government not its authorised issuer.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Why not the CA? You don't need to demonstrate skills at a particular point in time. You could do it by sailing CV. Take a different approach! The RYA is not sailing, just one part of it.

How does a CV evaluate the "book learning" parts, like ColRegs, navigation etc.? I agree there are other ways of demonstrating skills - my navigational skills arise from my former profession and mathematical science background - but a CV won't demonstrate them, and it happens that although an important part of my professional background, I have no "hard" evidence of such skills, unless you count A-level Maths and Further Maths (no navigation requires higher mathematical skills than that). The quickest and simplest way for an examiner to check my navigational skills was for me to work through a (to me trivial) exercise. But for the examiner to do that required him to be skilled in the techniques he was assessing, and knowledgeable about the level of skill required. As it was, he was interested in my technique, which differed from his but got the same answer! An alternative might be a detailed log, including the working of various navigational problems - but that would be a LOT more work than simply doing a day's assessment, and would still require you to pay an examiner to read through it and check your working and the solutions you present to the everyday incidents of sailing.

It's also worth bearing in mind that miles and sea-time aren't particularly good estimators of skills like navigation; precise navigation is only important for a small part of the time we are at sea, and in frequented waters, navigational marks remove much of the need for precision. Crossing oceans doesn't require precise navigation; they did it quite happily before the invention of the chronometer and sextant. I probably did more navigation on passage from the Clyde to the entrance to the Caledonian Canal than I did for the rest of the journey round to the East Coast - and the longest passage of all, 26 hours at sea - required very little attention to navigation as most of it was simply "steer 150 for the next 20 hours"!

 

[capnsensible]

Demonstrating the necessary knowledge and skills
Resolution No. 40 requires that applicants for the ICC prove that they have sufficient knowledge and ability to safely operate a pleasure craft. This can be done by presenting a recognised national certificate issued by the country which is issuing the ICC. Alternatively the Resolution makes provision for boaters to pass an examination - the ICC Assessment.
In order to be issued with a UK ICC by the RYA, you must provide evidence of your competence for each category you would like your ICC to be valid for. You can find out about the categories and check which categories will be validated by which certificates, tests or assessments in ICC-3 Notes: Evidencing boating competence.

 

[capnsensible]

UK ICC issued by RYA | boating abroad | RYA

 

[dgadee]

How does a CV evaluate the "book learning" parts, like ColRegs, navigation etc.? I agree there are other ways of demonstrating skills - my navigational skills arise from my former profession and mathematical science background - but a CV won't demonstrate them, and it happens that although an important part of my professional background, I have no "hard" evidence of such skills, unless you count A-level Maths and Further Maths (no navigation requires higher mathematical skills than that). The quickest and simplest way for an examiner to check my navigational skills was for me to work through a (to me trivial) exercise. But for the examiner to do that required him to be skilled in the techniques he was assessing, and knowledgeable about the level of skill required. As it was, he was interested in my technique, which differed from his but got the same answer! An alternative might be a detailed log, including the working of various navigational problems - but that would be a LOT more work than simply doing a day's assessment, and would still require you to pay an examiner to read through it and check your working and the solutions you present to the everyday incidents of sailing.

It's also worth bearing in mind that miles and sea-time aren't particularly good estimators of skills like navigation; precise navigation is only important for a small part of the time we are at sea, and in frequented waters, navigational marks remove much of the need for precision. Crossing oceans doesn't require precise navigation; they did it quite happily before the invention of the chronometer and sextant. I probably did more navigation on passage from the Clyde to the entrance to the Caledonian Canal than I did for the rest of the journey round to the East Coast - and the longest passage of all, 26 hours at sea - required very little attention to navigation as most of it was simply "steer 150 for the next 20 hours"!

Most employees are retained from a CV and a short interview. Why can't it work for sailing?

CA membership is £143 per year. They could offer ICC free to members - as does the RYA.

No wonder the UK is failing. No one wants to change anything. Think about better ways to do things! Think outside the box. Don't be so negative!

 

[capnsensible]

Most employees are retained from a CV and a short interview. Why can't it work for sailing?

CA membership is £143 per year. They could offer ICC free to members - as does the RYA.

No wonder the UK is failing. No one wants to change anything. Think about better ways to do things! Think outside the box. Don't be so negative!

Might be free but you still have to pass an assessment or provide other evidence.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Most employees are retained from a CV and a short interview. Why can't it work for sailing?

CA membership is £143 per year. They could offer ICC free to members - as does the RYA.

No wonder the UK is failing. No one wants to change anything. Think about better ways to do things! Think outside the box. Don't be so negative!

Every single job I've ever applied for or for which I have been on the recruiting end has required hard evidence of skills, in the form of certificates or other evidence of achievement. Persons without such evidence didn't make it through the first sift through the applications, except in extremely rare cases, such as when disability legislation applied. CVs only came into the picture once the hard evidence was in place and the interview came after that. And our "short interview" was usually an hour of structured conversation, during which each interviewer was required to assess the candidate's ability in various areas, and also produce a defensible rating of each candidate using a defined marking system. I think you are seeing the recruiting process through very rose-coloured glasses!

 

[Tranona]

Most employees are retained from a CV and a short interview. Why can't it work for sailing?

CA membership is £143 per year. They could offer ICC free to members - as does the RYA.

No wonder the UK is failing. No one wants to change anything. Think about better ways to do things! Think outside the box. Don't be so negative!

You are continuing to display your seeming ignorance of what the ICC is and raising issues such as CVs which are totally irrelevant.

I urge you to read the RYA links that capnsensible has posted. Then perhaps you will understand how irrelevant most of what you say is to the subject.

However I guess your last sentence suggests you have no interest in the truth.

 

[dgadee]

Oooh!

Document is ECE-TRANS-SC3-147r4e.pdf (google should get it) and I see no text in that which requires any set form of examination. Just of knowledge and skill:

"2. The applicant has to prove in an examination:
(a) sufficient knowledge of the regulations concerning pleasure craft operation
and nautical and technical knowledge required for safe navigation on inland waters and/or
coastal waters; and
(b) the ability to apply this knowledge in practice."

I was being funny about failing UK but I think I was being abused a bit more earlier. But I do think that the CA should consider assessing these. RYA uses it to boost membership. Why not the CA?

 

[dunedin]

Most employees are retained from a CV and a short interview. Why can't it work for sailing?

CA membership is £143 per year. They could offer ICC free to members - as does the RYA.

No wonder the UK is failing. No one wants to change anything. Think about better ways to do things! Think outside the box. Don't be so negative!

Most of the things the CA does are done by volunteers giving up their sailing time to help others.
If you feel so strongly about this offer your expertise, and most importantly, how much of your time you will make available free of charge all year round to manage and execute the process. A commitment to a day a week from you, with a long term commitment of 5 years or so, might suffice once set up.

Otherwise this would be a classic case of "somebody (else) should do ...."

 

[dgadee]

Most of the things the CA does are done by volunteers giving up their sailing time to help others.
If you feel so strongly about this offer your expertise, and most importantly, how much of your time you will make available free of charge all year round to manage and execute the process. A commitment to a day a week from you, with a long term commitment of 5 years or so, might suffice once set up.

Otherwise this would be a classic case of "somebody (else) should do ...."

I certainly would. My career had many extra roles outwith what was my core role. What do you know about mne which suggests I would not participate?

I don't think assessment by CV and short discussion would be too time consuming given the numbers involved. That was a common task before I retired.

 

[SaltyC]

Agreed. But how you assess is the point. I have sailed for 40 years, raced for years, gone round UK mostly solo, just arrived with boat ito the Aegean etc. etc. and you think I may need to actually physically demonstrate to someone with less experience that I can do basic boat handling? You suffer from RYA blinkered vision, perhaps?

So the skills are no problem. Just pay the fee to keep the unemployable administrative jobs worths in a job.

 

[Neeves]

I give lectures at yacht clubs, I do not expect to be paid. I post on this forum, the values of which you may debate - but I do not expect to be paid.

I, however long I was employed, was never asked for sight of my degree certificate. I was never asked for proof of information on my CV. I was known in the industries in which I worked (in the same way I am known as a skipper of a racing yacht and more recently for my excursions to the Whitsundays and SW Tasmania).

You don't win races without knowing how to manage tides or trim sails, you don't sail to the Whitsundays without knowing how to navigate and use ocean currents and weather. You do not survive on the start line of a RORC race if you do not understand right of way. You certainly do not cross Bass Strait without checking weather forecasts. You do not use the Hunter Passage without knowing about tides - it flows at 4 knots. Most parties who charter a yacht in the Med will not be sailing at night - why the emphasis on lights. You do not own a yacht and not be able to come alongside a pontoon (the alternative would be - you would be refused insurance).

Most charterers of yachts do not need much background in navigation - they have an MFD, they have a phone and tablet.

Here, and I may be out of date, people who charter are expected, demanded, to be at their evening's destination by 4pm (they do not need to know about lights). I wonder how many people chartering in the Med - sail at night. Charterer are expected to radio in location for the night - but they may not have a VHF users licence. . But then here we have no requirements to hold a certificate of any sort ,not entirely true - we are expected to have a VHF license - but in 25 years here in Oz - I've never been asked (I do have one and the extension to HF). Here there are cruising guides to the Whitsundays and all local waters. Every danger is defined, every anchorage is described, with aerial pictures, mud maps and sometimes extracts from charts - the guides are provided in charter yachts. It is assumed people can read.

Members here ask me by PM for my comments on their ground tackle. I bend over back wards to help them. I send photo of different installations I tell them of choices and a try to offer balanced views. I invest time - I do not expect to be paid nor am I restrictive in what I advise - even though I know I provide the information for free. Know;edge is of little value unless shared. But it is a 2 way flow - I amass background on where the fears are of the individual - which offers me an insight on where my explanations have been inadequate.

So

If I want to charter a yacht in the Med I need to fork out for a certificate and I have to demonstrate to someone, who may have less skill than me, a number of archaic skills, like taking a bearing, or the lights of a vessel under tow (even though this latter could be available on a laminated A4 sheet. I need to demonstrate an MOB - they think the owner of a racing yacht completing blue water races did not do this (and I have had an MOB in anger). I need to show I can manoeuvre a yacht in tight locations - how precisely as an owner did I refuel our yacht without these skills. I need to invest a few hours for this test, when I could be preparing a free lecture for a yacht club - and I have to pay for the privilege.

I am not going to charter a yacht in the Med. Undoubtedly my loss - by I wonder how many other individuals who have yachts in the UK cannot be bothered either - with a loss of a large customer base for the charter companies.

I see the value of the ICC for many but there is simply no flexibility - just the need to pay and waste a lot of time.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I wonder if Concerto has an ICC, see current threads, - or would he need to prove ability in a laborious "assessment". How does Skip Novak fit in? Many members here and many yachtsmen make impressive passages they obviously know what they are doing - why is there no 'non assessment' certification, with a lower cost. The fact there is not a tiered award of the certificate simply leads to the idea it is a money grab and a mechanism to increase employment in the industry - particularly as specific and obvious skills are not assessed.

Don't preach that its for safety in inland waters and coastal water - and excuse the omission of anchoring. Where exactly do you anchor if not in coastal waters - crossing the Atlantic? in a round the cans race? The problem with an inability to anchor is not simply the specific yacht - but all the yachts down wind.

An ICC gives an individual the opportunity to be a skipper - no questions asked. When under real pressure - an actually MOB - are they capable, I bet Skip Novak knows, I know, I've made practices with a number of crew and done it in anger - but this does not matter - no flexibility.

Fortunately we have our own yacht, we don't need to visit the Med. We have done the racing, we have the trophies,. Australia offers more than enough destinations, all in coastal waters, to last more than a lifetime.

Jonathan

 

[capnsensible]

Some years ago I taught a very nice and highly skilled Polish surgeon to sail. After qualifying bin his own country, he moved to France.

He had to re qualify.

Then he moved to the UK.

He had yo re qualify.

In an earlier career whenever I joined a different class of submarine, I had to re qualifying.

Asking someonne who needs an international certificate of competence to conform to an international standard doesnt seem onerous to me. And if one is a super experienced sailor it won't take long, will it?

I suppose it depends on how highly one rates one's own importance?

 

[Neeves]

Some years ago I taught a very nice and highly skilled Polish surgeon to sail. After qualifying bin his own country, he moved to France.

He had to re qualify.

Then he moved to the UK.

He had yo re qualify.

In an earlier career whenever I joined a different class of submarine, I had to re qualifying.

Asking someonne who needs an international certificate of competence to conform to an international standard doesnt seem onerous to me. And if one is a super experienced sailor it won't take long, will it?

I suppose it depends on how highly one rates one's own importance?

Or whether you care . I do note that the ICC is not needed to skipper a yacht in the UK (or Australia)

If its an international certificate you should not have to re-qualify - or its hardly an international certificate.

Strangely a HK or Australian driving licence is quite acceptable in the UK - and if you are going to be resident will be automatically replaced by a UK licence.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Or whether you care . I do note that the ICC is not needed to skipper a yacht in the UK (or Australia)

If its an international certificate you should not have to re-qualify - or its hardly an international certificate.

Strangely a HK or Australian driving licence is quite acceptable in the UK - and if you are going to be resident will be automatically replaced by a UK licence.

I think @capnsensible was referring to requalifying as a surgeon!

 

[capnsensible]

Or whether you care . I do note that the ICC is not needed to skipper a yacht in the UK (or Australia)

If its an international certificate you should not have to re-qualify - or its hardly an international certificate.

Strangely a HK or Australian driving licence is quite acceptable in the UK - and if you are going to be resident will be automatically replaced by a UK licence.

Good oh.

 

[Neeves]

I am a bit slow.

However it never crossed my mind that an ICC carried the same responsibilities as a surgeon nor of being a crew member on a submarine. I certainly would never equate my nautical skills as being as critical as that of a surgeon (nor a crew member on a submarine) - my own importance is pretty small in comparison.

Humbly,

Jonathan

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I am a bit slow.

However it never crossed my mind that an ICC carried the same responsibilities as a surgeon nor of being a crew member on a submarine. I certainly would never equate my nautical skills as being as critical as that of a surgeon (nor a crew member on a submarine) - my own importance is pretty small in comparison.

Humbly,

Jonathan

A surgeon can only kill one person at once - a mismanaged vessel (even our size of vessel) could potentially kill hundreds!