ICC By Assessment?

[grumpy_o_g]

My Uncle apparently went to the Post Office, gave them 10 bob (or however much) and walked out with his driving licence. My Father had to take a test but did his on a motorbike and sidecar which then abllowed him to drive anything.

 

[dgadee]

But any examination worth the name has to demonstrate that all the material required is understood to an appropriate standard.

We are talking about the ICC.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

We are talking about the ICC.

Which requires demonstration of a set of skills and knowledge.

 

[Tranona]

We are talking about the ICC.

Which is based on an agreed set of competencies which you need to demonstrate. How else can you do this apart from an assessment? No different from aa driving test which does not require any defined training or experience - you just rock up (by appointment) and are assessed.

 

[zoidberg]

Don't think buying some old git a few gins at a yacht club bar qualifies though .

I wasn't an old git at the time...

...and if I rocked up in my boat at a certain Canaries yacht club bar and procured 'capn sensible' enough cold G&Ts, there would come a point when even he would be pleased to sign anything! And acclaim me as his 'best friend since, oh, yonks'.....

Every man has his price!

Those who know me, know mine....

I much prefer the original version, where a chap would be pleased to sign another chap's chittie, in the knowledge that a chap would not let the side down by doing something unmentionable with said chap's yacht that would damage another chap's yacht, or bring the club into disrepute.

There is a Code, y'know!

 

[dgadee]

Which requires demonstration of a set of skills and knowledge.

Agreed. But how you assess is the point. I have sailed for 40 years, raced for years, gone round UK mostly solo, just arrived with boat ito the Aegean etc. etc. and you think I may need to actually physically demonstrate to someone with less experience that I can do basic boat handling? You suffer from RYA blinkered vision, perhaps?

 

[capnsensible]

Agreed. But how you assess is the point. I have sailed for 40 years, raced for years, gone round UK mostly solo, just arrived with boat ito the Aegean etc. etc. and you think I may need to actually physically demonstrate to someone with less experience that I can do basic boat handling? You suffer from RYA blinkered vision, perhaps?

You shouldn't have any problem demonstrating your skills to an assessor then.

 

[dgadee]

You pay and I'll do it

Provision of the ICC is a state function handed as a monopoly to the RYA. As a good monopolist it changes the original function to include benefit for itself and its franchise businesses. And no doubt everyone makes money.

 

[dunedin]

You pay and I'll do it

Provision of the ICC is a state function handed as a monopoly to the RYA. As a good monopolist it changes the original function to include benefit for itself and its franchise businesses. And no doubt everyone makes money.

Do you know what the I in ICC stands for? International.
It is not the RYA that sets the syllabus or the rules.

Not quote sure what your issue is, as nobody is forcing you to get an ICC, nor to go to a UK examiner if you want an assessment.
But just implying any old codger should be issued a Certificate of Competence based on what they claim their experience to be, without any (even brief) assessment is clearly not in line with the International basis if the ICC.

PS With just 40 years experience you probably are still wet behind the ears in terms of this forum

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Agreed. But how you assess is the point. I have sailed for 40 years, raced for years, gone round UK mostly solo, just arrived with boat ito the Aegean etc. etc. and you think I may need to actually physically demonstrate to someone with less experience that I can do basic boat handling? You suffer from RYA blinkered vision, perhaps?

But how did you demonstrate knowledge of collision regulations, lights, buoyage, ability to set a course, knowledge of tides, etc? All are required for the ICC, and while I don't doubt that you have or had all that, 5 minutes at the bar can't possibly have demonstrated it.

For the record, I am actually not exactly anti-RYA qualifications, but like you am sceptical of their application to people with existing experience, either from having gained it before such qualifications existed, or having ample professional knowledge. I also think they present a false vision of the kind of sailing most of us do.

BUT the ICC is an international certificate, more widely accepted than its formal legal status would indicate. It is NOT an RYA qualification, even though the RYA administer it in this country. For that convenient situation to continue, it has to be maintained as a credible qualification. The alternative for me would have been to take a week long Day Skipper course, which would have been vastly more expensive, and I would have not gained any more than I did from a pleasant day sailing with an instructor aboard.

 

[dgadee]

The RYA determine the contents and assessment. They do so in ways which benefits them financially.

It is international, but signatory states are responsible for their own provision.

You are all very keen to get me to spend my money. Can't see it happening

 

[Neeves]

Correct me if am wrong

An ICC is required to charter a yacht in some, many countries, in the Med.

I have raced for decades, participated in RORC Blue Water races, been skipper and owner (with my wife) of a yacht winning CHS annual championships 2 years in a row at a prestigous yacht club, Since 'retiring' from racing have owned a 38' cat for over 20 years, made a number of passages across Bass Strait to SW Tasmania and write occasionally about anchoring

But I need to pay to obtain an ICC.

Yet though I need to pay for said certificate - my fellow certificate owners do not need to know how to anchor - and an absence of knowledge of anchoring is a root cause of concern for many - check on anchoring threads on this forum, Cruisers Forum etc.

dgadee - I'm with you.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

The RYA determine the contents and assessment. They do so in ways which benefits them financially.

It is international, but signatory states are responsible for their own provision.

You are all very keen to get me to spend my money. Can't see it happening

The ICC requirements are nothing to do with the RYA. Their only role is as the designated UK issuing body. The requirements are set by the UN sponsored group, originally formed to establish standards for European inland waterways CEVNI. Subsequently a number of states have formally accepted the standard and others have recognised it.

In many cases the requirements are covered by national qualifications and individual states issue an ICC automatically to holders of those qualifications. This is exactly what happens here with the RYA that issues ICCs free to holders of its qualifying certificates. However it also offers assessment to anybody who can meet the requirements irrespective of whether they hold a formal qualification. That is what this thread is about. Of course those wanting assessment have to pay, but the cost in relation to the benefits for some people is modest - some might say a bargain!

Whether you see value is entirely up to you - if you feel you don't need it, don't bother, but as you see from many of the posts here, that although it is rarely asked for from private owners on their own boats, if you are ever involved in an incident in, say Greece you will find it is a bargain. The Port Police have enormous powers to make your life a misery and being involved in an incident particularly against a Greek boat will give them the opportunity they need - and the first thing they will ask for is your "captains licence". Greece is not alone in this, similar will happen in many other Med coastal states

 

[Tranona]

Correct me if am wrong

An ICC is required to charter a yacht in some, many countries, in the Med.

I have raced for decades, participated in RORC Blue Water races, been skipper and owner (with my wife) of a yacht winning CHS annual championships 2 years in a row at a prestigous yacht club, Since 'retiring' from racing have owned a 38' cat for over 20 years, made a number of passages across Bass Strait to SW Tasmania and write occasionally about anchoring

But I need to pay to obtain an ICC.

Yet though I need to pay for said certificate - my fellow certificate owners do not need to know how to anchor - and an absence of knowledge of anchoring is a root cause of concern for many - check on anchoring threads on this forum, Cruisers Forum etc.

dgadee - I'm with you.

Jonathan

Only partly right.

Astonished there is so much misunderstanding about the ICC as it is explained very clearly in the RYA notes on the subject. However as is often the case many people approach the subject from the viewpoint of it being some kind of negative imposition on them to relieve them of money.

So read what it is about and make up your own mind as to whether it has value for you.

BTW, no it does not cover anchoring - and a whole host of other important things for sailors - but then it was never intended to. It was to establish basic standards of boat handling and rule knowledge for safe navigation of the inland and coastal waterways of Europe.

 

[dunedin]

The RYA determine the contents and assessment. They do so in ways which benefits them financially.

It is international, but signatory states are responsible for their own provision.

You are all very keen to get me to spend my money. Can't see it happening

What rubbish. Any documented basis for these assertions?

Nobody is trying to get you to spend any money on an ICC. It is entirely voluntary in most of our cases (unlike some other countries) and this thread was responding to a question from the OP, not you.

But it is a cancer on our modern society how so many people are fast to criticise the efforts of others - sailing club committees, sailing instructors, RYA etc - but in many / most cases unwilling to step up and join the organising committees / boards to actually help run them. Often rather more difficult than the keyboard warriors think to keep all of the people happy all of the time - particularly those people who choose not to help out.
(Not saying this applies to anybody on here, but if cap fits ….)

 

[dgadee]

What rubbish. Any documented basis for these assertions?

Nobody is trying to get you to spend any money on an ICC. It is entirely voluntary in most of our cases (unlike some other countries) and this thread was responding to a question from the OP, not you.

But it is a cancer on our modern society how so many people are fast to criticise the efforts of others - sailing club committees, sailing instructors, RYA etc - but in many / most cases unwilling to step up and join the organising committees / boards to actually help run them. Often rather more difficult than the keyboard warriors think to keep all of the people happy all of the time - particularly those people who choose not to help out.
(Not saying this applies to anybody on here, but if cap fits ….)

I am criticizing a monopoply situation. If you think that monopolies are OK then you are out of kilter with most economic theory. Let the Cruising Association find a way to dispense ICC certificates. I am sure it would do without the urgency to maximise income.

This is a state based certificate. Would you be happy if only one driving school had a monopoly on driving licenses and assessment?

 

[dunedin]

I am criticizing a monopoply situation. If you think that monopolies are OK then you are out of kilter with most economic theory. Let the Cruising Association find a way to dispense ICC certificates. I am sure it would do without the urgency to maximise income.

This is a state based certificate. Would you be happy if only one driving school had a monopoly on driving licenses and assessment?

There are a lot of instructors and examiners able to do an ICC assessment, and they are much more independent than driving test centres are.
I am clearly not as expert as you, but was happy to undergo a practical assessment on my own boat for ICC which took just a couple of hours, and the refresher beforehand on the lights etc was no bad thing.

As an active member, I do not believe the CA should, would or could try to get involved in ICC‘s, as they don‘t have the network of approved examiners, nor the staff etc.

There is an easy route to get an ICC for those that want to, and are willing to demonstrate briefly their Competence in practice and theory to an examiner. For those that don’t want to get an ICC that is perfectly fine also.

 

[Tranona]

I am criticizing a monopoply situation. If you think that monopolies are OK then you are out of kilter with most economic theory. Let the Cruising Association find a way to dispense ICC certificates. I am sure it would do without the urgency to maximise income.

This is a state based certificate. Would you be happy if only one driving school had a monopoly on driving licenses and assessment?

Why do you think the CA will do it any better/cheaper? It is not a monopoly - the British sub Aqua club for example also issues it on behalf of the government to its members. No reason why the CA should not apply to issue it, but as they do not offer any qualifications nor the infrastructure to assess people can't see what they would offer that the RYA does provide.

The actual issuing authority is HMG as it is an intergovernmental agreement sponsored by the UN. The ICC issuing bit is nothing to do with the RYA provision of training and there is no compulsion to buy any other RYA service if you don't want to - just pay for the assessment.

You really are making a mountain out of a molehill, partly I think because of the commonly demonstrated misunderstanding of what the ICC is about. There is lots to criticise about the ICC and its relevance, but given the brief to the UN working party they seem to have done a pretty good job of getting something that fulfils a need for many people.

 

[capnsensible]

I am criticizing a monopoply situation. If you think that monopolies are OK then you are out of kilter with most economic theory. Let the Cruising Association find a way to dispense ICC certificates. I am sure it would do without the urgency to maximise income.

This is a state based certificate. Would you be happy if only one driving school had a monopoly on driving licenses and assessment?

There are shedloads of schools.....but only one DVLC.

 

[dgadee]

Why do you think the CA will do it any better/cheaper? It is not a monopoly - the British sub Aqua club for example also issues it on behalf of the government to its members. No reason why the CA should not apply to issue it, but as they do not offer any qualifications nor the infrastructure to assess people can't see what they would offer that the RYA does provide.

The actual issuing authority is HMG as it is an intergovernmental agreement sponsored by the UN. The ICC issuing bit is nothing to do with the RYA provision of training and there is no compulsion to buy any other RYA service if you don't want to - just pay for the assessment.

You really are making a mountain out of a molehill, partly I think because of the commonly demonstrated misunderstanding of what the ICC is about. There is lots to criticise about the ICC and its relevance, but given the brief to the UN working party they seem to have done a pretty good job of getting something that fulfils a need for many people.

Why not the CA? You don't need to demonstrate skills at a particular point in time. You could do it by sailing CV. Take a different approach! The RYA is not sailing, just one part of it.