Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[Iain C]

No Rotrax, I don't agree, and my reason is that the rot starts at the root, from day one.
Anyone who sails with me starts with a fingernail inspection. If the nails are long, they have to be cut. No claw cutting = no sailing.
Next....
Blah blah blah yawn blah

Please, please, please tell me you are trolling here. Have you even the slightest idea of how much of that people are likely to take in? All you are going to do is confuse the hell out of people...lord help you if they ever need to deploy the raft...they will probably open the canister with a tin opener and try and launch it down the heads.

What on earth is the point of giving people a lecture on anchoring and chain safety on their first trip out if you have no intention of anchoring? Whilst I salute your safety conscious attitude, perhaps talking through liferaft drills before setting out for a float round the bay one windless evening might be a bit of overkill.

I would also say that if you are, erm, thorough enough to make people remove their personal jewellery and have their fingernails checked, the reason no one wants to rig a preventer or reef your boat is because they are probably petrified about doing it wrong and want to see you do it first.

Part of the art of being a decent skipper is working out who in the crew can deal with additional information, who is it going to overload, who can you trust, and who just needs to be given a fun job to do to keep them interested. It's management at the end of the day and you simply won't ever end up with a bunch of perfect automatons who work in an identical way perfectly all the time. They tried that in factories for a while and gave up and installed robots. Who don't really enjoy their work...

 

[BobPrell]

Part of the art of being a decent skipper is working out who in the crew can deal with additional information, who is it going to overload, who can you trust, and who just needs to be given a fun job to do to keep them interested. It's management at the end of the day and you simply won't ever end up with a bunch of perfect automatons who work in an identical way perfectly all the time. They tried that in factories for a while and gave up and installed robots. Who don't really enjoy their work...

Well said. That is pretty much the mode we worked in on the sail training ship after an initial period of trying to hold trainees to rigid standards.

 

[VO5]

Please, please, please tell me you are trolling here. Have you even the slightest idea of how much of that people are likely to take in? All you are going to do is confuse the hell out of people...lord help you if they ever need to deploy the raft...they will probably open the canister with a tin opener and try and launch it down the heads.

What on earth is the point of giving people a lecture on anchoring and chain safety on their first trip out if you have no intention of anchoring? Whilst I salute your safety conscious attitude, perhaps talking through liferaft drills before setting out for a float round the bay one windless evening might be a bit of overkill.

I would also say that if you are, erm, thorough enough to make people remove their personal jewellery and have their fingernails checked, the reason no one wants to rig a preventer or reef your boat is because they are probably petrified about doing it wrong and want to see you do it first.

Part of the art of being a decent skipper is working out who in the crew can deal with additional information, who is it going to overload, who can you trust, and who just needs to be given a fun job to do to keep them interested. It's management at the end of the day and you simply won't ever end up with a bunch of perfect automatons who work in an identical way perfectly all the time. They tried that in factories for a while and gave up and installed robots. Who don't really enjoy their work...

I have outlined what is prudent...you don't like it...fine...please yourself.

 

[fireball]

Part of the art of being a decent skipper is working out who in the crew can deal with additional information, who is it going to overload, who can you trust, and who just needs to be given a fun job to do to keep them interested. It's management at the end of the day and you simply won't ever end up with a bunch of perfect automatons who work in an identical way perfectly all the time. They tried that in factories for a while and gave up and installed robots. Who don't really enjoy their work...

Well - I wouldn't say never - SWMBO in the racing dinghy is pretty dam good at anticipating my moves prior to the start - no comms - just moves ...

But yes - totally agree - V05 seems to have taken training to the extreme and wants a crack crew - without giving them a chance of learning the skills ...

fwiw I've sailed with a few YMs - on my boat and on others - on my boat they may be YMs but they still need direction in where lines are and how the boat rigs. When sailing with others I'll always ask what they want done - or if I see something that could do with doing I'll usually check with them first - they're skipper after all!

 

[BobPrell]

I have outlined what is prudent...you don't like it...fine...please yourself.

As you are VO5, with respect.

I do not see anyone rushing in to support your view recently, if at all.

So I think what the courts would call "a reasonable person", would consider your views excessive.

 

[VO5]

Well - I wouldn't say never - SWMBO in the racing dinghy is pretty dam good at anticipating my moves prior to the start - no comms - just moves ...

But yes - totally agree - V05 seems to have taken training to the extreme and wants a crack crew - without giving them a chance of learning the skills ...

fwiw I've sailed with a few YMs - on my boat and on others - on my boat they may be YMs but they still need direction in where lines are and how the boat rigs. When sailing with others I'll always ask what they want done - or if I see something that could do with doing I'll usually check with them first - they're skipper after all!

I dont expect a crack crew. What I don't want is someone's head cracked by the boom, or tripping up and falling overboard. I excercise a duty of care, which I insist on discharging to the best of my ability and experience.
Novices need to have dangers poiinted out to them from the start, otherwise we would all start sailing being experts. But there is a fallacy that just being given a peice of paper announcing the recipient is "competent crew" is a cruel deception. Then if one of them rips their nails out or ends up losing a finger by wearing a ring it is not funny. I am not going to get involved in tit for tat argument. I have explained and that's it.

 

[VO5]

As you are VO5, with respect.

I do not see anyone rushing in to support your view recently, if at all.

So I think what the courts would call "a reasonable person", would consider your views excessive.

What sort of court would that be ?

I suggest you read the thread initiated by Nostradamus: Sailing with jewellery on ? There you will read of how many people have suffered injuries that could easily have been avoided. The same goes for everything else.

A "reasonable person", meaning "a person able to engage reason", after reading that, which is just a brief sample, would not consider duty of care where inexperienced novices are concerned "excessive", but prudent.

 

[rotrax]

I dont expect a crack crew. What I don't want is someone's head cracked by the boom, or tripping up and falling overboard. I excercise a duty of care, which I insist on discharging to the best of my ability and experience.
Novices need to have dangers poiinted out to them from the start, otherwise we would all start sailing being experts. But there is a fallacy that just being given a peice of paper announcing the recipient is "competent crew" is a cruel deception. Then if one of them rips their nails out or ends up losing a finger by wearing a ring it is not funny. I am not going to get involved in tit for tat argument. I have explained and that's it.

I wonder when you last- if at all- read the current RYA objectives for the courses you seem so dismayed about. As I pointed out earlier, after a Comp. Crew completion and award of the certificate a trainee will have a measure of knowledge in personal safety, seamanship and helmsmanship to the level required to be a useful member of the crew of a cruising yacht. Perhaps the "Nanny State" which prompted you to leave the the UK thought it was exersicing a duty of care in protecting citizens from potential hazard. It is totaly unreasonable to expect any more from an RYA Comp Crew or Day Skipper than they will have been expected to have learned on a course. As a previous poster said your views, which you are fully entitled to hold, are in the minority here. Perhaps there is something to be learned by yourself from what other experienced sailors have said during this debate. It is concievable, after all, that your zeal for excellence is misplaced in regard to trainee yachtsmen. I have only been sailing for eight years. A mentor, a senior YM examiner and top skipper who sails for the JSASTC at HMS Hornet in Gosport said when he examined our logbook "wow- dont you guys do a lot of sailing!" First mate and I also keep our boat in commision all year, and despite having poor weather by comparison we still sail whenever possible, conditions and maintenance allowing. I have no illusions about my relative lack of experience with our 12 ton just under 40 ft. longkeeler. BUT I am intelligent enough to make allowances for this in everything we do-especialy manouvering in tight marina's! We shall agree to differ on many of the elements of sailing and sail training. I forget who said it , but here goes "I dont agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" I'm done with this thread now, my last post.

 

[BobPrell]

What sort of court would that be ?

Just courts in general, and it would come down to the jury at the time deciding. I cant hear any other member of this thread saying other than you are going too far.

I suggest you read the thread initiated by Nostradamus: Sailing with jewellery on ? There you will read of how many people have suffered injuries that could easily have been avoided. The same goes for everything else.

Yes, I read it. To say, the same goes for everything else, goes a bit far, I think.

A "reasonable person", meaning "a person able to engage reason", after reading that, which is just a brief sample, would not consider duty of care where inexperienced novices are concerned "excessive", but prudent.

Perhaps I should have said a reasonable person, could consider your views excessive.

A "reasonable person",(is that a gestalt?) would certainly agree that duty of care is prudent, but that does not mean all your attitudes are reasonable.

I would not be engaging like this if I did not think some of your ideas are valuable. In particular,

there is a fallacy that just being given a peice of paper announcing the recipient is "competent crew" is a cruel deception.

One wonders what the RYA originally meant it to be.

Looks like I have a cross-post with rotrax here perhaps he has answered that.

 

[Iain C]

...which I insist on discharging to the best of my ability and experience.
Novices need to have dangers poiinted out to them from the start...

I quite agree, pointing out the dangers of the boom is vital. But the emphasis should be on making and helping your crew understand, not "discharging your experience"

My traveller is on the bridge deck, right in the way of the companionway. We call it the "kill zone", as not only can the boom crack you one, you can end up with your head in the falls of the main sheet, or losing fingers as the traveller goes across. With a novice crew, a cheeky tug on the topping lift plus parking the traveller at one end gets it all out of harms way as they focus on what is for a newbie, the very confusing job of bringing warps and fenders in, coiling, stowing them, and not dropping anything overboard.

When I've briefed them on raising the main, and the kill zone, people are 100% focused on the slamming, rattling main sheet and traveller and suddenly "head height" boom. When a newbie crew later points out to another newbie crew that they are "sat in he kill zone" with a cuppa, you know the message went in.

All I am saying is most people learn stuff in a pragmatic, practical way as they go about their day, rather than by being lectured to.

 

[Sandy]

I have always visualised RYA training as a bit like a step ladder, with several more or less equally-spaced rungs.

You can step on or off at any rung that suits you -- so if you are already up to the level of the first rung, you can skip that one, and climb on at the second. If thesecond is high enough, you can get off there.

But if you set the bottom rung too high, or put the rungs too far apart, you won't get many people bothering to use it.

+1

 

[AuntyRinum]

...My traveller is on the bridge deck, right in the way of the companionway. We call it the "kill zone", as not only can the boom crack you one, you can end up with your head in the falls of the main sheet, or losing fingers as the traveller goes across.....

There are so many boats like that. It really is a **** design, isn't it?

 

[FishyInverness]

I have always visualised RYA training as a bit like a step ladder, with several more or less equally-spaced rungs.

You can step on or off at any rung that suits you -- so if you are already up to the level of the first rung, you can skip that one, and climb on at the second. If thesecond is high enough, you can get off there.

But if you set the bottom rung too high, or put the rungs too far apart, you won't get many people bothering to use it.

+1 Also, and in the context of this thread, the RYA certainly want to distance themselves from the people they appoint to hold that ladder, if those people then wander off to look at the pretty boats while someone is climbing it...especially in an F9!

 

[Iain C]

There are so many boats like that. It really is a **** design, isn't it?

Yeah, it's not ideal. But it does allow dinghy style main sheet trimming from being sat down in the cockpit. One Sabre has the traveller in the middle of the cockpit but I can't help feeling it would be forever in the way, although I can see the advantages. I'm not a fan of the traveller on the coach roof, it does not seem to work as well on smaller boats.

I actually have a snap shackle at either end of the mainsheet so there's a ready rigged handy billy for crew recovery etc....works well.

 

[VO5]

Just courts in general, and it would come down to the jury at the time deciding. I cant hear any other member of this thread saying other than you are going too far.

Yes, I read it. To say, the same goes for everything else, goes a bit far, I think.


Perhaps I should have said a reasonable person, could consider your views excessive.

A "reasonable person",(is that a gestalt?) would certainly agree that duty of care is prudent, but that does not mean all your attitudes are reasonable.

I would not be engaging like this if I did not think some of your ideas are valuable. In particular,



One wonders what the RYA originally meant it to be.

Looks like I have a cross-post with rotrax here perhaps he has answered that.

Since you ask....

A reasonable person is not a Gestalt. A reasonable person is one who does not argue for the sake of it.

A person who is able to logically deduce and reason and is able to act in accordance with that reason and additionally is properly informed in advance of logically deducing reasoning and acting accoprdingly is a Gestalt.

 

[FishyInverness]

.

A person who is able to logically deduce and reason and is able to act in accordance with that reason and additionally is properly informed in advance of logically deducing reasoning and acting accoprdingly is a Gestalt.

At what point did this thread turn into an episode of Yes Minister?

 

[VO5]

We have talked about nail clipping and we have talked about wearing rings..

All of you who disagree with me on being strict about safety with novices read a thread here entitled Royalist Fall and about the consequences of not following strict drills with regard to clipping and unclipping safety harnesses.

 

[VO5]

At what point did this thread turn into an episode of Yes Minister?

It isn't finished yet.

 

[maxi77]

It isn't finished yet.

And when will it change to Yes Prime Minister

 

[VO5]

And when will it change to Yes Prime Minister

When it is finally conceded, despite extended arguing for the sake of it, that I am right and that what I am posting is correct, that's all.