Simondjuk
Active member
Moi? 
Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition
- Thread starter islandsailor
- Start date
BobPrell
Well-known member
When it is finally conceded, despite extended arguing for the sake of it, that I am right and that what I am posting is correct, that's all.
I hereby call this post insufferable arrogance.
does not excuse it.
rotrax
Well-known member
When it is finally conceded, despite extended arguing for the sake of it, that I am right and that what I am posting is correct, that's all.
I said I was finished with this thread but BobPrell's reply to the above caused me to rethink my position. The difference between argument and debate is a clear one. You are entrenched in your pursuit of exellence-excellence as YOU see it. You do not conceed that other views are valid or have any relevance. Like the fixation you have on training by rote you see no virtue in anything else. My previous pastime was Motorcycle Racing. I sought out and rode in the most dangerous events in the world for 45 years. My life has been on that razor edge between success and disaster many many times. I have the thumbprint of the Grim Reaper on my shoulder where he has reached out for me but missed. I know about danger, probably more than most people. When my bike did a wheelie over a bump in the IOM in 1978 and stood up at about 60 degrees at 150 mph plus no amount of training by rote could have prepared me for that situation or trained me to deal with it- it was over almost before it began, but in that time I had travelled 200 yards, looking at the sky. Reflexes-natural balance-skill-luck? Who knows-I certainly dont. All I know is that I got away with it that time, but more importantly, on many further laps that year and the next, it never happened again. The amazing organic computer under my skull worked out how to deal with it and did so every lap I rode in the future. Surely this is what Tranona, myself and others have been trying to say to you. For some trainee sailors your regime may work, but it would not work for most. If you have problems with the RYA course structure take it up with them or be constructive. Your list of ideals was comprehensive and I said it had merit. It was also overbearing and patronising. It almost seems to me that you expect too much from a newly qualified Comp Crew or Day Skipper. Perhaps the HL skipper had the same illusion when he cast off on his ill concieved trip to LIBS in January................
mcframe
New member
<tiny defence of V05>
I *do* have a pair of nail clippers in the chart table drawer - as a weekend sailor - just in case I misplace my Leatherman† and have to use my diagonal side cutters (small, wiring for the use on) - for declawing, again ;->
</tiny defence of V05>
†Leatherman + marlinspike are handy for dissecting BBQ'd spatchcock, shame SWIMBO disagreed - that's why we spent £4.99 on a dedicated set of Boat BBQ Tools.
Simondjuk
Active member
I have some too, but I don't bring them out when I line up visiting crew members for their pre-permission-to-board inspection.
Maybe I should though.
Maybe I should though.
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jn2107
New member
The people who paid by c card or have insurance r paying when they get it BAck and the others who didn't have either pay whatever they get from administrators
VO5
New member
Yes, conceded.
I also agree with what you relate with regard to your experiences with motorcycle racing.
All of it is very interesting. Pushing the envelope has its merits.
But you did these daredevil things for yourself, on your own. The risk to life and limb was yours.
I bet your conduct on the roads as a motorcyclist was different. I bet your driving was more conscientious as a result of you being aware of risks other motorcyclists were not aware of as a result of them not pushing their abilities, their tenacity, their determination and their bravery like you did on a track in a competitve scenario.
I am also willing to bet that your driving on the road with a pillion passenger was even more conscienscious.
Now let's see, because there are parallels in this you may not be aware of...
When one is sailing single handed one is responsible for oneself.
When one sails with crew one is responsible for everybody, is my posture.
But some need more supervision and guidance than others.
As one is responsible for everybody one is duty bound to discharge that responsibility to the very best of one's ability, knowledge and experience.
The difference is that the luxury of selfishness flies out the porthole.
The priority now becomes the safety and well being of the crew.
When the crew is a totally novice crew the priority takes on greater focus.
Then because of this there are twenty or so individual topics revolving around safety and well being afloat that I prefer to cover in advance, not in hindsight.
Delivering them in hindsight does not solve anything.
Because I deliver them sequentially does not mean I am a Captain Bligh.
I do so because from my viewpoint it is the proper conduct for a skipper with a duty of care to volunteers and guests who have little or no experience.
Many may differ and argue its OK to let them learn as they go.
The trouble is, doing that, allows for learning from mistakes, hopefully by not repeating them.
The non repetition of mistakes is how experience is gained in life.
As some experiences can be unpleasant, dangerous and even potentially life threatening, that is why, I maintain the posture that I do.
VO5
New member
I have only just spotted your post and it merits a reply.
You have a squewed view of things. You interpret my posting as arrogant.
You are wrong. I am not arrogant. I am the first to admit if I do not know something I will ask. If I am mistaken I stand to be corrected. If I ask for advice from someone who knows more than me on a particular topic I will consider what he advises and I will follow that advice.
But you are one of a handful who likes to argue pointlessly.
I do not ignore the wisdom of all who have gone before us and who record their experiences and their knowledge for all of us who take the trouble to source and follow them.
This includes time honoured seafaring behaviour whose sole object is to educate us to risks and dangers and to do our best to avoid them, and in advance and in good time.
Now you may like to disagree, for the sake of it or for whatever reason.
I follow what is prudent even if criticised for being excessive. Being criticised for being excessive with regard to safety does not bother me one bit.
You think I am wrong.
You are entitled to your opinion.
But try and prove that I am wrong, go on.
fireball
New member
I take one or two "crew" aboard during the year that wouldn't understand the slightest bit of your briefing. Their safety is still my responsibility so I and my crew keep a close eye and ensure they dont do anything risky.
I also occasionally take out inexeperienced sailors. They don't get a huge safety brief either. They won't remember half of it and the vast majority is common sense. Your responsibility for safety diesnt dissolve just because youve warned the crew of the danger. So point out obvious ones and let them enjoy the sail. And perhaps you can enjoy them enjoying it!!
goboatingnow
New member
Vo5
( firstly I lurk a lot here)
Much of what you say has merit, how you get to across and your ideas in doing so are routed in the 19th century and have more merit if your crew was on Victory.
The fact is training must be tailored to the recipients not the teacher. Most leisure crews are on board for fun and their enjoyment. They may be newbies with little experience of whats to come or experienced crews that feel comfortable around a boat. Training must be tailored.
Education by rote, i.e. repeated mindless memorizing of detail, rarely results in people actually understanding anything. for that see 19th century schooling standards.
Leisure crews, firstly must be treated with respect. Secondly large, extensive safety briefs tends to be forgotten after 5 minutes of you droning on. You may feel you are covering the subject, the key thing is the trainees are not, as most have switched off.
You repeatedly undermine the value of RYA training yet I would prefer to have an RYA YM onboard then not. The RYA course ( from component crew to YM) covers most of what you mention but in a graduated way.
A sailing boat is not a death trap, despite your sonorous safety briefs. Crew with various levels of awareness can be catered for, its not like we need STCW95 for leisure boats.
A competent skipper, evaluates crew, watches and mentors the weak, provides experience and fulfillment for intermediate crew and stretches experienced crew.
I for example, if my crew are experienced I do not do such basic lecturing as you. I will ask the crew to seek out the safety equipment, I will watch quietly their progress aboard the boat and I will quietly point out any transgressions that I feel important. I can quickly see poor crew or people with more tickets then experience and I will adjust my commentary as appropriate, again I do it mostly in private as people have self -esteem.
If my crew are weak, I will do more "lecturing" at the start, but I avoid long detailed briefings as they get forgotten. Nor do I want to seen as a Captain Bligh figure. The biggest problem that causes many mistakes is that crew feel they cannot make a mistake and therefore try to cover up errors.
Much as you might like to be standing on the deck of Victory addressing midshipmen etc, this is not the way modern people acting in a voluntary capacity can be treated.
You may have good intentions, but you cannot deliver them in any way that is effective. I suspect you sail with a very small cadre of crew.
( firstly I lurk a lot here)
Much of what you say has merit, how you get to across and your ideas in doing so are routed in the 19th century and have more merit if your crew was on Victory.
The fact is training must be tailored to the recipients not the teacher. Most leisure crews are on board for fun and their enjoyment. They may be newbies with little experience of whats to come or experienced crews that feel comfortable around a boat. Training must be tailored.
Education by rote, i.e. repeated mindless memorizing of detail, rarely results in people actually understanding anything. for that see 19th century schooling standards.
Leisure crews, firstly must be treated with respect. Secondly large, extensive safety briefs tends to be forgotten after 5 minutes of you droning on. You may feel you are covering the subject, the key thing is the trainees are not, as most have switched off.
You repeatedly undermine the value of RYA training yet I would prefer to have an RYA YM onboard then not. The RYA course ( from component crew to YM) covers most of what you mention but in a graduated way.
A sailing boat is not a death trap, despite your sonorous safety briefs. Crew with various levels of awareness can be catered for, its not like we need STCW95 for leisure boats.
A competent skipper, evaluates crew, watches and mentors the weak, provides experience and fulfillment for intermediate crew and stretches experienced crew.
I for example, if my crew are experienced I do not do such basic lecturing as you. I will ask the crew to seek out the safety equipment, I will watch quietly their progress aboard the boat and I will quietly point out any transgressions that I feel important. I can quickly see poor crew or people with more tickets then experience and I will adjust my commentary as appropriate, again I do it mostly in private as people have self -esteem.
If my crew are weak, I will do more "lecturing" at the start, but I avoid long detailed briefings as they get forgotten. Nor do I want to seen as a Captain Bligh figure. The biggest problem that causes many mistakes is that crew feel they cannot make a mistake and therefore try to cover up errors.
Much as you might like to be standing on the deck of Victory addressing midshipmen etc, this is not the way modern people acting in a voluntary capacity can be treated.
You may have good intentions, but you cannot deliver them in any way that is effective. I suspect you sail with a very small cadre of crew.
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VO5
New member
You are obviously describing children and teenagers and I agree with you absolutely. Teenagers have a different interpretation of their own of the world we all inhabit and with children extra pairs of eyes are a bonus.
VO5
New member
First of all I am not a shouter. I know people who shout at other people on their boats but I am not one of them.
Your keyword in the whole of your post is most.
The RYA ought not to cover most of it, they ought to cover ALL of it.
And it ought not to be filtered along in a graduated way as you say, it ought to be delivered first and as a matter of priority.
Your description of rote is Victorian. We have moved on. For people to absorb information it has to be delivered with intermittent questions and answers and brief discussioin, otherwise it is not known if it has been absorbed.
You may be able to see what is inside peoples' heads just by looking at them but I can't.
Actually the excercise of delivering and absorbing and questioning and replying involves EFFORT, is what I have just realised.
You are just offering indirect excuses for not making any.
EFFORT nowadays is not fashoinable izzit, nearly everybody expects results without the inconvenience of having to exert it.
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BobPrell
Well-known member
It is nice to know you think my post has some merit.
On a charge of arrogance, no person can be a judge of themselves, because it is the effect on others, of what a person does, that causes them to be labelled arrogant.
such as, and I requote,
When it is finally conceded, despite extended arguing for the sake of it, that I am right and that what I am posting is correct, that's all.
No other poster has defended your attitude. Indeed, they have contradicted you eloquently and at length.
These are worthy statements if made sincerely. I have only your recent posts in this thread to go on. I have not seen you stand to be corrected at all.
I have long since given up any expectation of you giving an inch on the topic of your pre-sail briefing.
You cannot possibly know what I like to do or why.
For a person with such evident self-belief, to defend his position until
seems arrogant to me.
Nobody has yet said, "No, he is not so!".
fireball
New member
First lot yes. Second lot not always. Doesn't matter though unless you're into age discrimination?
Keen_Ed
Active member
This. +1
alant
Active member
Agree entirely with your sentiments.
There are basic things to get over in a safety brief, but too much information, will be lost. Some, particularly females, tend to actually listen & will remember all, even 10 years later (this is not a sexist comment).
Again, the brief will depend upon how long the time onboard will be.
Treating them by shouting/barking does not work.
rotrax
Well-known member
We surely have covered just about everything possible in this debate by now. If it was at a debating society I recon I know what way the vote would go. Thank you EVERYBODY for your posts. My opinion on sail training is based on fairly recent knowlege of taking courses,the last one in 2008. I also have formal qualification in training and I once was a long time member of the Insitute of Personell and Development (as it is now). I spent 15 years training a wide range of trainees in various subjects ranging from how to set up a parts department to diagnosis and repair of automatic transmissions. After that I was responsible for training Speedway riders at various tracks in the UK as well as for an Amateur Speedway Club. I was responsible for four or five young men at a time with little experience in a dangerous and dynamic enviroment. A modern Speedway motorcycle has 65 bhp. and wieghs less than 200lbs. It has no brakes. Training in the way suggested by VO5 would be a non starter in this disiplne. My method was to tell them how and why the bike worked. I would also tell them how to get off if they got it wrong. Starting the bikes would come next, an art in itself. 10-15 mins of this and back to how the bikes work by asking questions. Then 10-15 mins of how to get away when the tapes rise, followed by me demonstating this. There then comes the time when it can be put off no longer and you must allow the trainees to strut their stuff. Heartstopping I can tell you. Having a trainee on a yacht- not in the same league responibility wise! Many contributors to this debate have particular views, and somewhere in the midst of what we have read here is the way forward. The hard bit is identifying it, getting it approved and then implementing it.