Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[Simondjuk]

Ah.

 

[Old Dog]

Yes. So realistic training should in some way re-create fear and stress.

When I was a trainee army officer, this was done by someone yelling in my ear at the same time as I tried to call an artillery fire mission, for example. It was crude but effective. Some trainees could not cope with it.

This was why the forces invented "adventure training". To rappel down a cliff may never be useful to a soldier but it is relevant because they learned how to overcome natural fear, with training.


That is not entirely true, if the simulator is good enough. As described to me, in a ship damage control simulator, the danger is quite real, but it can be quickly removed by a safety officer if the trainee cannot cope.

Just putting someone in a closed box and switching off the lights, results in a test for claustrophobia.

We have some submariners on the forum, I am sure they can tell us, was simulator training worth doing.

The best form of "AT" the forces use is Offshore Sailing through JSASTC and long my that set up be spared the attention of the "bean counters". It is great to watch the change in the lads and now lasses after two weeks on a Nic 55 or one of the Ch 67's.

Exercises and simulators can only do so much, a touch of real danger and fear is required in training if people are going to cope well for real when chips are down.

 

[Old Dog]

Please excuse my (bountiful) ignorance, but what are the usual timescales for getting some published facts (by which I mean MAIB published) in these sorts of prosecution situations?

Or is it just a length of a piece of string situation?

Cheers,

J

No MAIB investigation = No report, MAIB are not looking into this, no real injury and no real damage to yacht, way below the level of incident they would look at.

 

[Simondjuk]

Having given it some consideration, I feel I have a contribution to make in taking the unguis affair to its logical conclusion.

Contrary to the notion that long fingernails present a hazard, I believe the opposite to be true.

Should a long fingernail be engaged to a depth of a few millimetres, as might be permitted by the construction of the typical seam in a sail prior to the contact of the free margin with the stitching preventing deeper insertion, it seems likely that any backward force would indeed crease and possibly fracture the nail at or near the hyponychium, thus causing the victim a moderate degree of discomfort.

If a well trimmed distal edge were to be caught in a similar fashion - and a crisp edge of sailcloth can find its way under even the shortest of nails - the minimal length of nail between the snagged tip and the nail bed is likely to prove relatively more rigid than would a longer section. Consequently, should sufficient force be applied, where the longer nail will fracture and function in the nature of a weak link to prevent greater injury, the shorter nail is more likely to remain intact over its unsupported length and therefore be torn away from the nail bed in its entirety, thus causing the victim considerable pain and a degree of temporary incapacity.

In conclusion, longer nails are safer.

 

[marklucas]

Having given it some consideration, I feel I have a contribution to make in taking the unguis affair to its logical conclusion.

Contrary to the notion that long fingernails present a hazard, I believe the opposite to be true.

Should a long fingernail be engaged to a depth of a few millimetres, as might be permitted by the construction of the typical seam in a sail prior to the contact of the free margin with the stitching preventing deeper insertion, it seems likely that any backward force would indeed crease and possibly fracture the nail at or near the hyponychium, thus causing the victim a moderate degree of discomfort.

If a well trimmed distal edge were to be caught in a similar fashion - and a crisp edge of sailcloth can find its way under even the shortest of nails - the minimal length of nail between the snagged tip and the nail bed is likely to prove relatively more rigid than would a longer section. Consequently, should sufficient force be applied, where the longer nail will fracture and function in the nature of a weak link to prevent greater injury, the shorter nail is more likely to remain intact over its unsupported length and therefore be torn away from the nail bed in its entirety, thus causing the victim considerable pain and a degree of temporary incapacity.

In conclusion, longer nails are safer.

+1

Oh but what about the vanity grief from America's Next Top Model!



And then the accompanying law suit.

 

[Keen_Ed]

I will never forget my Yachtmaster Instructor assessment, which was carried out on a lovely old 54 footer of which I later became the full-time skipper.

Part way through the course, one candidate was "skipper of the day". He adopted something like the fingernail inspecting routine, sitting by the companionway and not allowing anyone on deck unless they were wearing shoes and had a knife. Meanwhile, the tide was whistling out -- and with 9ft draft in Newton Ferrers, we were likely to be stuck there if we didn't cut the krapp and get going.

To cut a long story short, the guy eventually asked some of us to go up to the foredeck and "get ready to let go". The Examiner said (quietly) "you didn't quite catch all of that: you thought he said let go". With the staff skipper smirking from ear to ear, we did. The boat slipped gently away from her mooring, and piloted herself down the dog leg bend (sideways) while the "skipper", completely oblivious, carried on with his shoe and knife inspection.

He did not pass.

Very good!

 

[VO5]

You may not be interested in minimum standard but that is exactly what a standard is. There is a level set at a specific point. Achieve that level and you have reached the standard. There may not be any reward for exceeding the standard. Just like, I suspect, the standards for the impressive qualifications you hold. I dont for one minute believe you enjoy the challenge of really heavy weather all the time as your profile indicates. It would become very repetitive after a while surely? If sailing schools devoted themselves to the pursuit of exellence in the way you would have them do very few people would continue with sail training to improve their skills for what is for most a hobby.They would take up something else pretty quickly! Perhaps you should drop the hook in a nice anchorage and watch a beutifull sunset. Thats the sort of exellence I'm interested in.

I don't go out looking for heavy weather, but equally it doesn't worry me in the least. In fact, if anything I derive satisfaction from having a well found ship. Then the advent of heavy weather is an occurrence to be taken in one's stride, with confidence, instead of nail biting worry and fear.

In this part of the world, because of the climate, vessels can be kept in full commission. Even in the deepest winter there are lovely sunny breezy days to enjoy out on the water. As the tides are not madly strong either, finding a quiet anchorage to have a barbeque or a picnic and a swim is de riguer. As for sunsets, we have had for the last fortnight or so the most stunning sunsets ever. Very beautiful.

But when I speak of the pursuit of excellence, that is exactly what I mean, the pursuit of excellence purely for the satisfaction that it yields.

Now in the Merchant Marine, for example, there are two grades of seaman.
The lower grade is an Ordinary Seaman and the higher grade is an Able Bodied Seaman. Their skill sets are graded and very comprehensive. I concede that what an AB is expected to have mastery of does not apply to pleasure sailing (such as splicing wire hawsers, making cargo netting and operating derricks) but the idea is that an OS can aspire higher within that discipline. Nothing stops these grades from aspiring to become deck officers, ultimately masters of vessels, all the way up the grades to the highest qualifications.

Now the problem with minimum standards is that they are not percieved to be as they really are - minimum grades.

This leads the holders to assume that because they have qualified, that they are empowered. Not so.

I can tell you I have three chums who are sailors, one of them has the Ocean Ticket (RYA) with a Commercial Endorsement. Between the four of us we have a total 183 years of seafaring experience. We never have any problems sailing with each other, but the moment an RYA qualified crew member joins it is a cause for anxiety as we have in the past experienced Competent Crew who have no idea how to lay an anchor or reef. Offshore Skippers who cannot helm properly. Coastal Skippers who have no idea of weather helm, sail trimming or where the hell they are pointing. Spinnaker drills and rigging preventers ? Forget it. I must record none of these were trained here. But it begs the question as to what the devil it is they have been taught and what the hell it is they have learnt.

Therefore as from last summer, we have jointly decided we only sail with crew we already are familiar with and who have submitted to our own structured tuition, RYA or no RYA, sorry.

 

[Searush]

Sounds a bundle of fun, your boat VO5.

 

[VO5]

Sounds a bundle of fun, your boat VO5.

No, not mine.
These are my friends' experiences with qualified numpties.
I circumvented these problems long ago by educating crew properly.

 

[Tranona]

No, not mine.
These are my friends' experiences with qualified numpties.
I circumvented these problems long ago by educating crew properly.

I think VO5 that you might live in a very different world from most of us.

Don't think many people see sailing in the same way as you. It is a leisure activity - not an extension of the military, nor a battle against the elements, nor a modern day version of the naval battles of Nelson.

Can quite see why you are comfortable in the company of similar minded people, but would respectfully suggest that many people (including me) go sailing to escape the strictures and heirarchies that you describe.

 

[VO5]

I think VO5 that you might live in a very different world from most of us.

Don't think many people see sailing in the same way as you. It is a leisure activity - not an extension of the military, nor a battle against the elements, nor a modern day version of the naval battles of Nelson.

Can quite see why you are comfortable in the company of similar minded people, but would respectfully suggest that many people (including me) go sailing to escape the strictures and heirarchies that you describe.

Absolutely !

But do a job properly and you only do it once.
Don't bother to do it properly and you will have to undo what you did and start again, that's all.
We all go sailing for fun.

I have a friend who is useless at carpentry for example.
He is always in a pickle.
He tries to put up shelves nailing the brackets to the wall with nails....that sort of thing.

 

[rotrax]

I don't go out looking for heavy weather, but equally it doesn't worry me in the least. In fact, if anything I derive satisfaction from having a well found ship. Then the advent of heavy weather is an occurrence to be taken in one's stride, with confidence, instead of nail biting worry and fear.

In this part of the world, because of the climate, vessels can be kept in full commission. Even in the deepest winter there are lovely sunny breezy days to enjoy out on the water. As the tides are not madly strong either, finding a quiet anchorage to have a barbeque or a picnic and a swim is de riguer. As for sunsets, we have had for the last fortnight or so the most stunning sunsets ever. Very beautiful.

But when I speak of the pursuit of excellence, that is exactly what I mean, the pursuit of excellence purely for the satisfaction that it yields.

Now in the Merchant Marine, for example, there are two grades of seaman.
The lower grade is an Ordinary Seaman and the higher grade is an Able Bodied Seaman. Their skill sets are graded and very comprehensive. I concede that what an AB is expected to have mastery of does not apply to pleasure sailing (such as splicing wire hawsers, making cargo netting and operating derricks) but the idea is that an OS can aspire higher within that discipline. Nothing stops these grades from aspiring to become deck officers, ultimately masters of vessels, all the way up the grades to the highest qualifications.

Now the problem with minimum standards is that they are not percieved to be as they really are - minimum grades.

This leads the holders to assume that because they have qualified, that they are empowered. Not so.

I can tell you I have three chums who are sailors, one of them has the Ocean Ticket (RYA) with a Commercial Endorsement. Between the four of us we have a total 183 years of seafaring experience. We never have any problems sailing with each other, but the moment an RYA qualified crew member joins it is a cause for anxiety as we have in the past experienced Competent Crew who have no idea how to lay an anchor or reef. Offshore Skippers who cannot helm properly. Coastal Skippers who have no idea of weather helm, sail trimming or where the hell they are pointing. Spinnaker drills and rigging preventers ? Forget it. I must record none of these were trained here. But it begs the question as to what the devil it is they have been taught and what the hell it is they have learnt.

Therefore as from last summer, we have jointly decided we only sail with crew we already are familiar with and who have submitted to our own structured tuition, RYA or no RYA, sorry.

Fine, you pursue your objective to your hearts content. But please realise what a Pratt you sound when you try to get others to join you point of view. Especially when you have posted on your profile that you left the UK because you had had enough of the "Nanny State". YOU RUN A NANNY STATE ON YOUR BOAT BY THE SOUND OF IT.

 

[Skipper2008]

The Totty.......sails as a guest.
If the Totty....intends to participate in sail handling etc., the Totty has to undergo clawcutting...otherwise the Totty's nails ...inevitably....will get broken below the quick...which the Totty will not like....because the Totty...will have the unpleasant experience of suffering pain....(you should know that)...and the Totty will be completely turned off by the experience and blame the skipper....and as the skipper....apart from being in command....has a duty of care.... additionally by virtue of being skipper...therefore...in advance of unpleasantness, pain and blame...no clawcutting = no sailing....but presence as mascot or dolly OK.... Period.

Ever considered that 'the Totty' may prefer to be on a boat with someone much less patronising and derogatory than yourself?

 

[maxi77]

Absolutely !

But do a job properly and you only do it once.
Don't bother to do it properly and you will have to undo what you did and start again, that's all.
We all go sailing for fun.

I have a friend who is useless at carpentry for example.
He is always in a pickle.
He tries to put up shelves nailing the brackets to the wall with nails....that sort of thing.

Now would try to help him rather than exclude him, perhaps that is the difference between us. I accept some are better at some things than I am just as I can be better at other things. Now I look to improve myself from those who are better, and try to help those who need it. That is how most of us learn and improve ouselves. Mistakes are part of the learning process, we all need to make them although perhaps like Holy Willie you are perfect.

 

[timbartlett]

I have always visualised RYA training as a bit like a step ladder, with several more or less equally-spaced rungs.

You can step on or off at any rung that suits you -- so if you are already up to the level of the first rung, you can skip that one, and climb on at the second. If thesecond is high enough, you can get off there.

But if you set the bottom rung too high, or put the rungs too far apart, you won't get many people bothering to use it.

 

[westernman]

I have always visualised RYA training as a bit like a step ladder, with several more or less equally-spaced rungs.

You can step on or off at any rung that suits you -- so if you are already up to the level of the first rung, you can skip that one, and climb on at the second. If thesecond is high enough, you can get off there.

But if you set the bottom rung too high, or put the rungs too far apart, you won't get many people bothering to use it.

Exactly.

And I think the RYA has placed those rungs at about the right distance and the syllabus is not bad. The RYA courses I have been on, I have learnt from and have had a good time. The amount of material is about right too - and a good mix of theory and practice.

After all, we are doing this for fun, for a part time leisure activity - this is not a full time university degree. We are not military conscripts!

I think the courses, overall, do an excellent job for the amateur yachtsman.

The situation is of course a bit more complicated for the professional skipper. A day skipper plus commercial endorsement does seem a bit on the light side.

However, for an hours afternoon's outing - only in good weather and when the sun is shining, going just outside the harbour for a few minutes, which is exactly what some commercial operators do, it may well be adequate.

 

[RobbieW]

The situation is of course a bit more complicated for the professional skipper. A day skipper plus commercial endorsement does seem a bit on the light side.

From the RYA website the lowest level that can be commercially endorsed is Coastal

 

[Boomshanka]

Looks like the RYA are adding a further layer of (online) training from April 2012 for commercial endorsement: I wonder if this would have changed the outcome of the HL case at all?

[clicky]

"Professional Practices and Responsibilities (PPR) - a compulsory online course for new and revalidating RYA Commercial Endorsement holders applicable from April 2012."

"What the course will cover

The RYA’s PPR course will cover the legal framework you need to adhere to in your status as a commercial operator - whatever vessel you work on. While we can’t teach the specific rules for every type of operation, the course will help you understand and execute your duty of care, and give you principles, guidance and techniques to make the right choices and decisions. The course will be split into 4 sections:

Commercial enviroment - showing how you fit into the professional maritime world.

People – explaining the importance of correct manning, keeping your skills up to date and the safe management of commercial vessels.

Vessel – teaching about the compulsory carriage and maintenance of safety equipment and how to create and implement risk control and operating procedures.

Purpose – making sure your vessel is suitable and legal for the work you are carrying out, your obligations in protecting the environment, appropriate planning and situational awareness.

At the end of these training modules will come an online assessment. "

 

[westernman]

From the RYA website the lowest level that can be commercially endorsed is Coastal

Oops. Was what I meant.

 

[BobPrell]

Looks like the RYA are adding a further layer of (online) training from April 2012 for commercial endorsement.

[clicky]
.
.
.
At the end of these training modules will come an online assessment.

And further from RYA

*From April 2012 applicants for the commercial endorsement will also have to complete an online course and assessment, as detailed in the ‘What is a commercial endorsement?’ section above.

Will there be a huge rush of applicants during Feb and March when they don't have to do the course and assessment?