Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[Tranona]

Perhaps 'Ol toady might get a few clues on how to conduct a debate on line! Thank you both.

Now you know why I gave up trying to engage with him a long time ago! No benefit - so I sit on the sidelines and marvel at how somebody (if he exists at all) can exist in the same state of ignorance for so long and seemingly revel in it.

 

[BobPrell]

I think the most important factor was lost in a series of posts about the philosophy of education and teaching. As a former teacher and instructor, I appreciate their value, but in this

Please tell me, and many other interested parties who are following this thread how ANY organisation could "do" practical storm training. As I am sure we all believe, storm conditions should be avoided. ...... To put a vessel into hazzard for training purposes could be a serious breach of "Duty of Care" should it go tits up.

the operative word rotrax typed was "practical".

I once did a "Heavy Weather Sailing" week on a Challenge yacht, out of Plymouth in October, they used to run them regularly.
Learned a lot .............
(Couldnt get out of Salcombe one of the days!) And a lot of us were seasick. Skipper was David >>>?
Remembered now..David Melville was Instructor. Where is he now?

This sort of course sounds like practical experience to me, but there are problems. The general problem of deliberately placing a yacht and crew in danger. Just that of getting out of port, in heavy weather. This might well be the most dangerous part of the voyage.

Then there is the unreliability of the weather. When folks rock up for their 5 day course and find gentle breeze, sunny days and fluffy clouds, what happens?

Aircraft pilots practise emergencies in simulators. Submariners and other seafarers practise escape and damage control in simulators where people get wet, cold and function in the dark.

So imagine if you will a big tank with a yacht hull in it, moved by hydraulic rams , with waves made to order, and huge fans to provide gale force wind.

Trainees could practise in there under supervision by safety officers, who could switch the whole thing off if anyone panics or gets hurt.

It sounds like something only a defense department could afford, but there is the film industry. There must be a movie mogul somewhere, keen yachtie, who could create something like this for an action movie and hand it over to the RYA after.

 

[rotrax]

I think the most important factor was lost in a series of posts about the philosophy of education and teaching. As a former teacher and instructor, I appreciate their value, but in this



the operative word rotrax typed was "practical".



This sort of course sounds like practical experience to me, but there are problems. The general problem of deliberately placing a yacht and crew in danger. Just that of getting out of port, in heavy weather. This might well be the most dangerous part of the voyage.

Then there is the unreliability of the weather. When folks rock up for their 5 day course and find gentle breeze, sunny days and fluffy clouds, what happens?

Aircraft pilots practise emergencies in simulators. Submariners and other seafarers practise escape and damage control in simulators where people get wet, cold and function in the dark.

So imagine if you will a big tank with a yacht hull in it, moved by hydraulic rams , with waves made to order, and huge fans to provide gale force wind.

Trainees could practise in there under supervision by safety officers, who could switch the whole thing off if anyone panics or gets hurt.

It sounds like something only a defense department could afford, but there is the film industry. There must be a movie mogul somewhere, keen yachtie, who could create something like this for an action movie and hand it over to the RYA after.

The best and most achievable suggestion yet-why did I not think of it! Most simulators you see at fairgrounds,country shows etc. would only require a software and video tape change and internal mods to the cabin to simulate a yacht cockpit or a motorboat wheelhouse. First class-go straight to go and collect £200.00!

 

[alant]

I once did a "Heavy Weather Sailing" week on a Challenge yacht, out of Plymouth in October, they used to run them regularly.
Learned a lot about weather systems, used the storm sails, used the Emergency Tiller, Boarded over hatches,got out the Liferaft, (very heavy) practised MOB and recovery,and went sailing to the Scilly Isles at night in quite windy conditions. Had a great week and learnt a lot. Also all about wearing the right gear and doing up all the wrist seals etc, and harnesses.
(Couldnt get out of Salcombe one of the days!) And a lot of us were seasick. Skipper was David >>>?

There's a 'slight' difference between a 67'/43t steel boat, built for RTW the wrong way, doing "Heavy Weather Sailing", compared to a 40.7 plastic dish/ AWB which the average sailor might experience these conditions on.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Heavy weather experience courses, heavy weather simulators! Neither will prepare one for sailing a yacht in foul weather or developing emergency skills and both risk developing a false sense of preparedness.

Everything for good seamanship is readily available to the skipper of a small yacht now: equipment, procedures, instructions. All ones needs to do is to become aware and practice using it such that they are second nature.

The skipper that has developed a Systems Thinking approach is likely to be a competent skipper irrespective of milage at sea.

 

[VO5]

Systems thinking is not one thing but a set of habits or practices[2] within a framework that is based on the belief that the component parts of a system can best be understood in the context of relationships with each other and with other systems, rather than in isolation. Systems thinking focuses on cyclical rather than linear cause and effect.

In simple terms it is the application of thought to a Gestalt.
I mentioned a Gestalt in a previous post but omitted the thinking process applied to it.

 

[marklucas]

Well the MCA is now taking both HL and the skipper to court.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Please excuse my (bountiful) ignorance, but what are the usual timescales for getting some published facts (by which I mean MAIB published) in these sorts of prosecution situations?

Or is it just a length of a piece of string situation?

Cheers,

J

 

[Talulah]

Please excuse my (bountiful) ignorance, but what are the usual timescales for getting some published facts (by which I mean MAIB published) in these sorts of prosecution situations?

Or is it just a length of a piece of string situation?

Cheers,

J

Here's some reading from a year ago to keep you going.
http://sailers.co.uk/index.php?opti...nd-derecognised&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50

I don't remember these 2 cases being discussed but I may have just missed it.
The fines are quite sizeable and I wonder if they ever paid them or ended up doing the time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tlantic-trip-unsafe-yacht-collided-WHALE.html

 

[rotrax]

Heavy weather experience courses, heavy weather simulators! Neither will prepare one for sailing a yacht in foul weather or developing emergency skills and both risk developing a false sense of preparedness.

Everything for good seamanship is readily available to the skipper of a small yacht now: equipment, procedures, instructions. All ones needs to do is to become aware and practice using it such that they are second nature.

The skipper that has developed a Systems Thinking approach is likely to be a competent skipper irrespective of milage at sea.

I still think that a simulator would be beneficial in showing just how physicaly demanding heavy weater in a yacht is-and this from someone who has never been in anything like survival conditions. As I said in a previous post, the opertunity to find out just how hard it is to move about the boat safely, go to the heads, reef or drop and make secure the mainsail-all these are a challenge even in the relativly mild conditions I have experienced. It appears the poor buggers on the HL trip to LIBS may have benifited. If simulators are used at NASA for astronaut training there must be something in it. We agree how dangerous and against H&S REAL storm training could be- space training is even more out of reach, hence simulators. If the only good idea bought up by this long winded thread is that simulators get considered by an agency whose members/ volunteers MAY benifit from their use I would consider that to be a considerable step forward. In my opinion of course............

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Repetitive training in simulators works because it is repetitive. Standing on a simulated heaving deck once or twice would provide entertainment at best.
The skipper who practices deep reefing, hoisting storm jibs, rigging towing bridles etc etc, will be a well prepared skipper when the wind blows.

 

[VO5]

I still think that a simulator would be beneficial in showing just how physicaly demanding heavy weater in a yacht is-and this from someone who has never been in anything like survival conditions. As I said in a previous post, the opertunity to find out just how hard it is to move about the boat safely, go to the heads, reef or drop and make secure the mainsail-all these are a challenge even in the relativly mild conditions I have experienced. It appears the poor buggers on the HL trip to LIBS may have benifited. If simulators are used at NASA for astronaut training there must be something in it. We agree how dangerous and against H&S REAL storm training could be- space training is even more out of reach, hence simulators. If the only good idea bought up by this long winded thread is that simulators get considered by an agency whose members/ volunteers MAY benifit from their use I would consider that to be a considerable step forward. In my opinion of course............

No Rotrax, I don't agree, and my reason is that the rot starts at the root, from day one.
Anyone who sails with me starts with a fingernail inspection. If the nails are long, they have to be cut. No claw cutting = no sailing.
Next....
A walk around the deck and a detailed explanation of what ropes are in tension under sail and which are slack and why ropes can be dangerous
either from flailing, binding or burns.
Next:
For this reason all jewellery on wrists or fingers off.
Next:
Hair....the perils of long hair out of control. Hair = bunches, pigtails or whatever but long loose hair flying about, no.
Next;
Footwear and how to walk on deck, how to stand, how to brace, how to avoid obstacles and where these obstacles are found, on deck, on the coachroof, on the gunwales, at the bow, on the stern, at the mast.
Deck shoes- shoelaces. Grip.
Next:
Harnesses, fitting and adjustment. Where the lifelines are and why. Where the hooks for clipping are sited and why. Drills for clipping and unclipping. Entering and leaving main hatch. Cockpit drills for clipping and unclipping.
Next:
Handrails. Where they are sited. What is safe to cling onto and what is not. Reasons.
Next:
Winch operation. Fingers.
Chain operation hands and fingers.
Halyards, sheets, guys, preventers. Fingers again.
Next:
The boom. "Boom!" = "Your head!"
Next:
Sail handling and fingernails.
Next:
Standing in the bight of a rope. Stepping over ropes. Stepping on ropes = risk of loss of balance.
Next:
Rope burns, use of gloves. Glasses on lanyards. Sun hats. Sunburn.
Where to sit, where not to sit. Where to stand, where not to stand.
Next:
Hot liquids in the cockpit. Smoking. Precautions with sharp objects.
Glass. Tins. Knives. Skewers. Tin openers.
Next:
Where not to put binoculars, torches, tools, anything loose that can roll off.
Next:
Liferaft and liferaft drills.
Lifejackets.
Comfort.
Diet.
Next:
Below decks. The galley.The heads. The grabrails. The sinks and the perils of spilt washing up liquid for example.
Next:
Moving about below when under way.
Next:
Medical chest. First aid.
Next:
Fire.
Next:
Explosion
Next:
Man overboard.
Next:
Potential injuries.
Next:
Appropriate clothing.
Next:
Waste disposal, rubbish, plastics, wrappings, non biodegradable material.
Next:
Helm orders. Repetition to acknowledge it has been heard and understood.
Clarity of who is on watch and who isn't. "You have command" Acknowledgement "I have command", "thank You".

All else confusion.

Questions and answers.

All of these protocols are not given the importance each deserves. I have watched several Competent Crew videos. You would think these are essentials. But no, they are skimped over. They shouldn't be, but they are.

Heavy weather:
Decision to run for port or heave to or run.
Position on the chart with the date and time.
A series of drills to prepare the vessel.
Stowage of heavy items.
Preparation of food.
Preparation for full watertight integrity.
Delegation of duties.
etc.,

Is this in the syllabus ?
No. It may be mentioned but not structurally delivered.

 

[dt4134]

You can do heavy weather training if you wait for your opportunity. We go out as a race crew for heavy weather training from time to time. Of course you wouldn't do it with a novice crew, and you do have to prepare properly and know how you are going to get back in. With a strong crew and a good boat it can be fun.

 

[VO5]

You can do heavy weather training if you wait for your opportunity. We go out as a race crew for heavy weather training from time to time. Of course you wouldn't do it with a novice crew, and you do have to prepare properly and know how you are going to get back in. With a strong crew and a good boat it can be fun.

Yes, but equally it can be prepared in a classroom. Then afloat in a breeze to practice what has been learnt. You don't have to set out in a hooley to practice.

 

[BobPrell]

Heavy weather experience courses, heavy weather simulators! Neither will prepare one for sailing a yacht in foul weather or developing emergency skills and both risk developing a false sense of preparedness.

Everything for good seamanship is readily available to the skipper of a small yacht now: equipment, procedures, instructions. All ones needs to do is to become aware and practice using it such that they are second nature.

The skipper that has developed a Systems Thinking approach is likely to be a competent skipper irrespective of milage at sea.

I do not understand this sort of reply, unless BlowingOB thinks that the intention was that simulator time replaces all other preparation. The idea is that it supplements other preparation.

When he says that a skipper canl be competent irrespective of milage at sea, how little can it be?

100 miles? 10 miles? zero miles?

If simulator time is so inefffective, NASA and the services are wasting an awful lot of money.

I still think that a simulator would be beneficial in showing just how physicaly demanding heavy weater in a yacht is.... to find out just how hard it is to move about the boat safely, go to the heads, reef or drop and make secure the mainsail..
We agree how dangerous and against H&S REAL storm training could be.... hence simulators.

Thanks for your support rotrax.

This is the crucial difference supplied by a simulator. To experience the feeling of 40 knot wind blowing your eyeballs nearly out of your head - the NOISE and all the rest. These can be described but it is not the same as feeling it.

 

[rotrax]

No Rotrax, I don't agree, and my reason is that the rot starts at the root, from day one.
Anyone who sails with me starts with a fingernail inspection. If the nails are long, they have to be cut. No claw cutting = no sailing.
Next....
A walk around the deck and a detailed explanation of what ropes are in tension under sail and which are slack and why ropes can be dangerous
either from flailing, binding or burns.
Next:
For this reason all jewellery on wrists or fingers off.
Next:
Hair....the perils of long hair out of control. Hair = bunches, pigtails or whatever but long loose hair flying about, no.
Next;
Footwear and how to walk on deck, how to stand, how to brace, how to avoid obstacles and where these obstacles are found, on deck, on the coachroof, on the gunwales, at the bow, on the stern, at the mast.
Deck shoes- shoelaces. Grip.
Next:
Harnesses, fitting and adjustment. Where the lifelines are and why. Where the hooks for clipping are sited and why. Drills for clipping and unclipping. Entering and leaving main hatch. Cockpit drills for clipping and unclipping.
Next:
Handrails. Where they are sited. What is safe to cling onto and what is not. Reasons.
Next:
Winch operation. Fingers.
Chain operation hands and fingers.
Halyards, sheets, guys, preventers. Fingers again.
Next:
The boom. "Boom!" = "Your head!"
Next:
Sail handling and fingernails.
Next:
Standing in the bight of a rope. Stepping over ropes. Stepping on ropes = risk of loss of balance.
Next:
Rope burns, use of gloves. Glasses on lanyards. Sun hats. Sunburn.
Where to sit, where not to sit. Where to stand, where not to stand.
Next:
Hot liquids in the cockpit. Smoking. Precautions with sharp objects.
Glass. Tins. Knives. Skewers. Tin openers.
Next:
Where not to put binoculars, torches, tools, anything loose that can roll off.
Next:
Liferaft and liferaft drills.
Lifejackets.
Comfort.
Diet.
Next:
Below decks. The galley.The heads. The grabrails. The sinks and the perils of spilt washing up liquid for example.
Next:
Moving about below when under way.
Next:
Medical chest. First aid.
Next:
Fire.
Next:
Explosion
Next:
Man overboard.
Next:
Potential injuries.
Next:
Appropriate clothing.
Next:
Waste disposal, rubbish, plastics, wrappings, non biodegradable material.
Next:
Helm orders. Repetition to acknowledge it has been heard and understood.
Clarity of who is on watch and who isn't. "You have command" Acknowledgement "I have command", "thank You".

All else confusion.

Questions and answers.

All of these protocols are not given the importance each deserves. I have watched several Competent Crew videos. You would think these are essentials. But no, they are skimped over. They shouldn't be, but they are.

Heavy weather:
Decision to run for port or heave to or run.
Position on the chart with the date and time.
A series of drills to prepare the vessel.
Stowage of heavy items.
Preparation of food.
Preparation for full watertight integrity.
Delegation of duties.
etc.,

Is this in the syllabus ?
No. It may be mentioned but not structurally delivered.

As usual there is merit in what you suggest. However I would respectfully say that if training in the depth you suggest were part of a BASIC level course, such as Comp Crew most trainees would wonder what they were getting into at that stage of their sailing career. The RYA syllabus for comp crew is very limited in its scope- after all it is little more than a "Taster" into sailing on a cruising yacht. From my RYA Cruising Scheme syllabus and logbook}-Comp Crew Practical Course-the aim of the course is to introduce the complete beginner to cruising and to teach personal safety, seamanship and helmsmanship to the level required to be a usefull member of the crew of a cruising yacht. The Comp Crew course delivered that and more to First Mate and I in June 2003 when we did it. In an earlier post you bemoan the lack of common sense. If trainees have a modicum of that elusive quality much of what you propose above falls into place during the next practical courses, Day Skipper or coastal Yachtmaster (as it is now). In my view the training available in the UK through the RYA is more than suitable for what it intends to achieve. The highlights you make, while desireable, are not essential for leisure sailing. For example-Liferaft drill. Unless you deploy it and practice getting in and out you can do little more than tell the crew what to do and when to do it. Many of the points will be second nature to trainees who prepare food. I would consider it patronising to be told how to use a can opener. First Mate would probably tell you not to teach your granny! It appears to me that you believe sail training should be more rigorous. I take the position that as a new sailor passes through the increasing levels of the Cruising Scheme these matters are covered fully AND AT THE APPROPIATE TIME. Too much too soon can be offputting and counterproductive. You obviously began your sailing career long before I did and perhaps have had a different experience building up to where you are now. We are in the 21st century and, wether we like it or not the world is a different place and people have different expectations. If training courses become longer and subsequently cost more less will sign up-the training we have appears to be doing a good job and gets both power boaters and yachtsmen on the water with basic skills for a sensible cost. In my opinion, of course................

 

[rotrax]

Repetitive training in simulators works because it is repetitive. Standing on a simulated heaving deck once or twice would provide entertainment at best.
The skipper who practices deep reefing, hoisting storm jibs, rigging towing bridles etc etc, will be a well prepared skipper when the wind blows.

The type of simulator I have in mind would replicate the accurate movement of a small vessel-power or sail-and it would not be difficult the simulate sail reefing. Could even have buckets of water chucked in your face while reefing! A screen showing a wild sea with large waves would be synchronised to the movement to give the helm an idea of how the vessel reacts in those conditions. Thats how simulators work. These days they are pretty realistic.

 

[Simondjuk]

There is a limitation to drills and simulation in that many crew failures are fear and/or stress induced.

Simulators, being safe environments, tend not to cause these emotions to arise and hence allow the participant the opportunity to learn their management.

 

[Tranona]

No Rotrax, I don't agree, and my reason is that the rot starts at the root, from day one.
Anyone who sails with me starts with a fingernail inspection. If the nails are long, they have to be cut. No claw cutting = no sailing.
Next....
A walk around the deck and a detailed explanation of what ropes are in tension under sail and which are slack and why ropes can be dangerous
either from flailing, binding or burns.
Next:
For this reason all jewellery on wrists or fingers off.
Next:
Hair....the perils of long hair out of control. Hair = bunches, pigtails or whatever but long loose hair flying about, no.
Next;
Footwear and how to walk on deck, how to stand, how to brace, how to avoid obstacles and where these obstacles are found, on deck, on the coachroof, on the gunwales, at the bow, on the stern, at the mast.
Deck shoes- shoelaces. Grip.
Next:
Harnesses, fitting and adjustment. Where the lifelines are and why. Where the hooks for clipping are sited and why. Drills for clipping and unclipping. Entering and leaving main hatch. Cockpit drills for clipping and unclipping.
Next:
Handrails. Where they are sited. What is safe to cling onto and what is not. Reasons.
Next:
Winch operation. Fingers.
Chain operation hands and fingers.
Halyards, sheets, guys, preventers. Fingers again.
Next:
The boom. "Boom!" = "Your head!"
Next:
Sail handling and fingernails.
Next:
Standing in the bight of a rope. Stepping over ropes. Stepping on ropes = risk of loss of balance.
Next:
Rope burns, use of gloves. Glasses on lanyards. Sun hats. Sunburn.
Where to sit, where not to sit. Where to stand, where not to stand.
Next:
Hot liquids in the cockpit. Smoking. Precautions with sharp objects.
Glass. Tins. Knives. Skewers. Tin openers.
Next:
Where not to put binoculars, torches, tools, anything loose that can roll off.
Next:
Liferaft and liferaft drills.
Lifejackets.
Comfort.
Diet.
Next:
Below decks. The galley.The heads. The grabrails. The sinks and the perils of spilt washing up liquid for example.
Next:
Moving about below when under way.
Next:
Medical chest. First aid.
Next:
Fire.
Next:
Explosion
Next:
Man overboard.
Next:
Potential injuries.
Next:
Appropriate clothing.
Next:
Waste disposal, rubbish, plastics, wrappings, non biodegradable material.
Next:
Helm orders. Repetition to acknowledge it has been heard and understood.
Clarity of who is on watch and who isn't. "You have command" Acknowledgement "I have command", "thank You".

All else confusion.

Questions and answers.

All of these protocols are not given the importance each deserves. I have watched several Competent Crew videos. You would think these are essentials. But no, they are skimped over. They shouldn't be, but they are.

Heavy weather:
Decision to run for port or heave to or run.
Position on the chart with the date and time.
A series of drills to prepare the vessel.
Stowage of heavy items.
Preparation of food.
Preparation for full watertight integrity.
Delegation of duties.
etc.,

Is this in the syllabus ?
No. It may be mentioned but not structurally delivered.

Oh Dear!

Where does one start? Hope I never end up on a boat with you as a skipper, or even worse as an instructor. I thought you were attracted by the concept of Gestalt - and here you are doing exactly the opposite - deconstruction of the process to the nth degree.

When you are training people you are aiming to produce autonomous, self directing people who understand the principles involved and the strategies for employing those principles to achieve the objective. Most people are more than capable of working out just about everything on your list of instructions for themselves - if they can't they won't survive for long.

There is no "one right way" of doing things to be effective, even less following a prescriptive set of instructions.

Might I suggest that you read David Kolb on adult learning. He sees learning as a cycle of theory, practical experiment, experience and reflection and true learning comes from going through this cycle. The key thing from his research and that of many others is that people enter the cycle at different points. So some people look for structured theory and see the world in a series of logical tested processes. Others prefer to experiment (find out for themselves) - yet others, probably the biggest single group draw their learning from the world around them and reflecting on what they see.

The approach you advocate only caters for one style and is likely to put at least 75% of the population off! When I started out learning about formal accounting it was taught in a way similar to your description, complete with a ruler to rap knuckles if you got it wrong. Very painful process and most of my classmates never got the hang of it. The penny really dropped for me when I had to do the accounts as executor for my mother's estate. I discovered over the 20 years or so that I taught accounting to mature management students that success in understanding came mostly from not trying to teach the mechanics, with all the attendant failures, but to start from the outcome - that is what are these accounts trying to represent and exploring how the numbers form that representation.

There are strong parallels with teaching say navigation where the basic principles are quite straightforward, but the underlying calculations can be very challenging to do in the abstract. The level of detail required depends on where you are navigating - so greater if you sail in my home waters of the Channel and north coast of France than in the 10 years I sailed in the Eastern Med.

It is a long time since I have done the RYA syllabus, but from what I have seen it is still appropriate for the desired outcomes. I guess the final proof is that leisure sailing in the UK, despite the challenges of the environment is a very "safe" activity and thousands of skippers navigate their boats around the coast successfully every year.

 

[Simondjuk]

The approach you advocate only caters for one style and is likely to put at least 75% of the population off!.

You're not wrong there. It put me off at 'finger nail inspection'!