Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition

[VO5]

VO5

You do, but your position does have some gaps in it.

I hope you are not saying that it is not worth teaching anything unless you teach everything. If so, it would follow that only a 100% pass rate is acceptable!

Also, it is not always the case that self taught people are always less well educated than those formally educated by professionals. Your approach assumes that the teachers already know pretty well everything from both clasroom teaching and enormous experience, which would imply a vanishingly small number of them.

in a perfect world you would be right, but in practice the number of people sailing would be very greatly limited to those with both the time and the esources to undertake very expensive and extensive training and practice. given that the majority of leisure sailors will never need the extreme knowledge and experience to deal with conditions which they will almost always plan or contrive to avoid, you would deny them access to our sport. what a pity that would be.

getting back to the point of this thread, it seems to me from the evidence already posted, including an account from one of the survivors, that the skipper made a rash call. We do not yet know whether he did so out of ignorance, innocence, bravado or pressure from his employer. The MCA investigation should establish this, and enable them to decide whether prosecution under the law should follow. Some of the posters on this forum seem to be hell bent on avoiding this position in both directions; why this should be God only knows.

Giles[/QUOTE}

You raise very interesting points.

No I am not exactly advocating that every nook and cranny should be explored during the course of tuition. The student ought to be pointed additionally in the direction in which further reading, study and reflection would be of benefit in order to further enhance his knowldge base.

What I am attempting to explain (without actually getting involved in giving a series of lessons) is the "palette" idea.

In the palette approach in which a specific aspect is taught "ADDITIONALLY" empowerment is derived by the surrounding topics that hinge upon it being properly explored with further reading recommended.

This allows for a completre and comprehensive viewpoint to be seeded.

Once this viewpoint is seeded (as a result of the student's own unaided effort to follow) the palette of understanding is expanded exponentially relative to that topic.

Then progressively separate topics are delivered and these topics develop clusters of their own.

As all these things hinge upon each other in some way or another, this cultivation of clusters causes the development of a Gestalt (which is a German word that means something being greater than the sum of the parts that compose it), the object being an enriched, energised, empowered and profound understanding.

This is achieved by overlapping groups of Gestalts relative to one another resulting in one huge Gestalt, which ought to be the object of the excercise.

Then the unwillingness or reluctance to go the extra mile is what disempowers the student owing to incomplete information.

Incomplete information leads to incomplete knowledge which leads to flawed judgement which leads ineviitably to,with hindsight, to rash calls being made.

 

[Simondjuk]

I don't think there's much wrong with the RYA syllabus. It is sufficiently comprehensive whilst remaining accessible.

What it cannot substitute is a fundamental lack of common sense.

 

[jordanbasset]

I don't think there's much wrong with the RYA syllabus. It is sufficiently comprehensive whilst remaining accessible.

What it cannot substitute is a fundamental lack of common sense.

+1

 

[alant]

If I am invited to attend, yes.
I would be happy to fill all the gaps missing.
Because the object is to keep people safe and to save lives.
I am now very near my 66th birthday.
I have been sailing since 1971 ish.
Yachtmaster Ocean Ticket (BOT) 1974., about 15000 on the clock.
65 is the cutoff age for instructors under the RYA scheme.
But I am happy to contribute in any event.

"65 is the cutoff age for instructors under the RYA scheme."

Not so!

"Due to the arduous nature of practical training afloat, the recommended retirement age is 70. Instructors over 70, wishing to continue will be required to update every 2 years. All instructors will update by their 72nd year and then 2 yearly thereafter."
Instructor

 

[Tranona]

When an agenda is delivered in proper structure even the most cantakerous of pupils will finally realise that what he is recieving is education which has real value, whereas if he were to be recieving book learning the consideration would just be the price. Do I make myself clear ?

Yes, you make yourself very clear - however your preferred approach is not the only effective way of LEARNING (as opposed to TEACHING).

There is a vast amount of research that shows that people learn in different ways, and that for many people the didactic approach you are advocating is simply not effective. Individual preferences are partly inate (that is people are born with it) and partly culturally determined (that is learned behaviour). I shall be reminded of this when I have my 4 grandchildren to stay at half term next week. They are all different in their preferences for learning and have displayed those preferences from birth. Thankfully their mothers are experienced teachers so are able to adapt to those preferences and treat their children as individuals.

The role of the RYA (or any entity setting standards of qualifications) is to determine what is needed to "certificate" competence - ie the outcomes of the learning, and the means by which those outcomes will be assessed. The educational providers then offer mechanisms to help participants achieve those outcomes. If your preferred method of "teaching" is as you describe that is fine and will no doubt lead to success for some. However, it is presumptuous to say it is the ONLY way - it just the one that reflects your preference. Other methods can achieve similar outcomes, and some people can successfully meet the level of competence required with no formal "teaching" at all.

Of course structured learning programmes will always be popular because most people are starting from a low level and need the guidance of a structured programme to gain the basic knowledge base. However, the further you move up the scale, the less important structure becomes as your knowledge base allows you to take responsibility for your own learning. Then the role of "teacher" changes - learning facilitator becomes a more appropriate term. Eventually it leads to equality and a blurring of the teacher/learner relationship - and even as I discovered when I started supervising doctoral candidates it leads to role reversal - when the so and so's end up cleverer (and knowing more) than you!

 

[dt4134]

"65 is the cutoff age for instructors under the RYA scheme."

Not so!

"Due to the arduous nature of practical training afloat, the recommended retirement age is 70. Instructors over 70, wishing to continue will be required to update every 2 years. All instructors will update by their 72nd year and then 2 yearly thereafter."
Instructor

And I believe you only need 3,500 miles in the last 10 years, a YM ticket & the nod from a sailing school principal to become an RYA Cruising Instructor, so now's your chance VO5.

 

[rotrax]

Yes, you make yourself very clear - however your preferred approach is not the only effective way of LEARNING (as opposed to TEACHING).

There is a vast amount of research that shows that people learn in different ways, and that for many people the didactic approach you are advocating is simply not effective. Individual preferences are partly inate (that is people are born with it) and partly culturally determined (that is learned behaviour). I shall be reminded of this when I have my 4 grandchildren to stay at half term next week. They are all different in their preferences for learning and have displayed those preferences from birth. Thankfully their mothers are experienced teachers so are able to adapt to those preferences and treat their children as individuals.

The role of the RYA (or any entity setting standards of qualifications) is to determine what is needed to "certificate" competence - ie the outcomes of the learning, and the means by which those outcomes will be assessed. The educational providers then offer mechanisms to help participants achieve those outcomes. If your preferred method of "teaching" is as you describe that is fine and will no doubt lead to success for some. However, it is presumptuous to say it is the ONLY way - it just the one that reflects your preference. Other methods can achieve similar outcomes, and some people can successfully meet the level of competence required with no formal "teaching" at all.

Of course structured learning programmes will always be popular because most people are starting from a low level and need the guidance of a structured programme to gain the basic knowledge base. However, the further you move up the scale, the less important structure becomes as your knowledge base allows you to take responsibility for your own learning. Then the role of "teacher" changes - learning facilitator becomes a more appropriate term. Eventually it leads to equality and a blurring of the teacher/learner relationship - and even as I discovered when I started supervising doctoral candidates it leads to role reversal - when the so and so's end up cleverer (and knowing more) than you!

+1. Tranona makes very valid points here. My two sons are not Graduates. The elder decided that he did not want any debt hanging over him. He took a part time job with a small local free magazine that got its income through advertising. He made the tea, took the banking into town and paid it in and did filing.He worked his way up practicaly to be a Production Editor for an International Publishing House. All his peers were graduates but he more than held his own academicaly-he is a clever lad. He, partner and baby have just emigrated to NZ to make their life in that country. His partner is a Kiwi. Youngest son was more of a challenge. The state secondary shcool he attended, despite our suggestion that he responded to 99% carrot and1% stick could never incentivise him to work. As his parents we knew he was intelligent but the trick was to make him believe it. Eventually we were called into the school. It went something like "Here is the Diploma-Get Him Out!" On his 16th birthday he found a job in the automotive manufacturing industry, only left when the company moved away. Various temp jobs untill he temped as a researcher in social media. He is now in a senior position, overseeing graduates with good degrees and working with international clients.The only training has been "On the Job Training". He has been approached by heavy duty headhunters twice now but has remained loyal to the firm that kept him on when they made 19 out of a team of 23 redundant at the start of the reccession. The best Motorcycle Mechanic I ever had on a training course could not read or write. If gardeners have green fingers this guy had the greasy equivilent. To keep up with tech. service bulliteins he would mark up the workshop manual diagrams and illustrations with a number that corresponded to the info. he required, info that he put in his own graphic code that he understood. If I needed to get a sophisticated and complex DOHC 8 valve watercooled bike to a dealer to be fixed, his was the workshop I tried to get it to. Both he and my younger son would not have coped with teaching the way VO5 suggested. We are all different in our mental and thought proccess and training/education is easy for some and hard for others. For some it will always be a lost cause.

 

[VO5]

Yes, you make yourself very clear - however your preferred approach is not the only effective way of LEARNING (as opposed to TEACHING).

There is a vast amount of research that shows that people learn in different ways, and that for many people the didactic approach you are advocating is simply not effective. Individual preferences are partly inate (that is people are born with it) and partly culturally determined (that is learned behaviour). I shall be reminded of this when I have my 4 grandchildren to stay at half term next week. They are all different in their preferences for learning and have displayed those preferences from birth. Thankfully their mothers are experienced teachers so are able to adapt to those preferences and treat their children as individuals.

The role of the RYA (or any entity setting standards of qualifications) is to determine what is needed to "certificate" competence - ie the outcomes of the learning, and the means by which those outcomes will be assessed. The educational providers then offer mechanisms to help participants achieve those outcomes. If your preferred method of "teaching" is as you describe that is fine and will no doubt lead to success for some. However, it is presumptuous to say it is the ONLY way - it just the one that reflects your preference. Other methods can achieve similar outcomes, and some people can successfully meet the level of competence required with no formal "teaching" at all.

Of course structured learning programmes will always be popular because most people are starting from a low level and need the guidance of a structured programme to gain the basic knowledge base. However, the further you move up the scale, the less important structure becomes as your knowledge base allows you to take responsibility for your own learning. Then the role of "teacher" changes - learning facilitator becomes a more appropriate term. Eventually it leads to equality and a blurring of the teacher/learner relationship - and even as I discovered when I started supervising doctoral candidates it leads to role reversal - when the so and so's end up cleverer (and knowing more) than you!

You make very valid points and put across very intelligently, if I may say so.
But for complete numpties initially I prefer rote and according to a detailed syllabus that allows linkage for the attainment of an enriched Gestalt.
Once that is achieved then facilitating is feasable in my view, not before.

 

[VO5]

+1. Tranona makes very valid points here. My two sons are not Graduates. The elder decided that he did not want any debt hanging over him. He took a part time job with a small local free magazine that got its income through advertising. He made the tea, took the banking into town and paid it in and did filing.He worked his way up practicaly to be a Production Editor for an International Publishing House. All his peers were graduates but he more than held his own academicaly-he is a clever lad. He, partner and baby have just emigrated to NZ to make their life in that country. His partner is a Kiwi. Youngest son was more of a challenge. The state secondary shcool he attended, despite our suggestion that he responded to 99% carrot and1% stick could never incentivise him to work. As his parents we knew he was intelligent but the trick was to make him believe it. Eventually we were called into the school. It went something like "Here is the Diploma-Get Him Out!" On his 16th birthday he found a job in the automotive manufacturing industry, only left when the company moved away. Various temp jobs untill he temped as a researcher in social media. He is now in a senior position, overseeing graduates with good degrees and working with international clients.The only training has been "On the Job Training". He has been approached by heavy duty headhunters twice now but has remained loyal to the firm that kept him on when they made 19 out of a team of 23 redundant at the start of the reccession. The best Motorcycle Mechanic I ever had on a training course could not read or write. If gardeners have green fingers this guy had the greasy equivilent. To keep up with tech. service bulliteins he would mark up the workshop manual diagrams and illustrations with a number that corresponded to the info. he required, info that he put in his own graphic code that he understood. If I needed to get a sophisticated and complex DOHC 8 valve watercooled bike to a dealer to be fixed, his was the workshop I tried to get it to. Both he and my younger son would not have coped with teaching the way VO5 suggested. We are all different in our mental and thought proccess and training/education is easy for some and hard for others. For some it will always be a lost cause.

Granted. Of course not, but there again the progression you describe is not conventional but nevertheless leads to success. A different approach is needed in such cases.

Additionally people are either visual, audial or kinesthetic.

This means the message has to be delivered in a "wavelength" recipients can recieve and interpret according to their individual propensities, otherwise blank looks are the result.

 

[VO5]

And I believe you only need 3,500 miles in the last 10 years, a YM ticket & the nod from a sailing school principal to become an RYA Cruising Instructor, so now's your chance VO5.

Well, we'll see.

 

[VO5]

I don't think there's much wrong with the RYA syllabus. It is sufficiently comprehensive whilst remaining accessible.

What it cannot substitute is a fundamental lack of common sense.

I agree that it has to be accessible, otherwise excessive intensity will put people off. But there again, doors should be opened during the process to indicate further learning and areas that hinge upon the topic and its development, as I explain in a previous post.

About common sense...all very well and good, but the correct information in sequence has to be delivered first, otherwise common sense renders itself invalid.

Consider as an extreme case a New Yorker and an Eskimo......

They may both have common sense in matters in which they have extensive knowledge.

Switch them round and neither can survive in each other's environment.
Disregarding climatic differences the underpinning problem is lack of knowledge.

Even in one's own environment common sense is not always the correct solution.

Consider that few have very high levels of intelligence.
Many have average levels of intelligence.
Others may have low or very low levels of intelligence.

But intelligence is not linked to knowledge.

But common sense is.

So how is it that common sense itself does not appear to be that common ?

 

[RobbieW]

... Other methods can achieve similar outcomes, and some people can successfully meet the level of competence required with no formal "teaching" at all...

Indeed, the Yachtmaster of the Year for 2006? was just such a person. No previous RYA training but a bl**dy good sailor having raced and cruised with him.

 

[rotrax]

So how is it that common sense itself does not appear to be that common ?

Perhaps because the learning process was by rote and not by showing students how to find stuff out for themselves. First mate and I keep a small library and we love reading. Before the advent of home computers and the internet I told my elder son that whatever he wanted to know he could find it out from a book. Now of course its probably on the internet. He took this information to heart and became inquisitive and researched all sorts of stuff that he was interested in. I think I am trying to say that, like a good University, the students are given the tools to do the work. How they use these tools is an indication of how their minds work and sets out the basics of how they might progress in the future. This will be true of any subject, including sailing. The fact that higher education works this way and has done for many years would tend, I believe, to reinforce this theory, simplistic as it is. I must say its been a pleasure reading your thoughts, and Tranona's, on this subject. Perhaps 'Ol toady might get a few clues on how to conduct a debate on line! Thank you both.

 

[Old Dog]

RNG1

Vehemently, no. But I have actually told you on two threads how to find the rules that Recognised Training Centres work by.

How to obtain the RGN1 notice.

I have provided you with the telephone number of the RYA for you to call.

I have given you the name of the person to talk to.

I conclude that you deliberately and with malice continue to provoke any poster in order to satisfy your own agenda.

I will still, however, be available in public forum or by personal message, to help you with your questions and hope that your call to the RYA will be answered to your satisfaction and you will be able to report the results here.

Despite you calling me a liar, here, I will still help you, if you wish.

CS

Just an observation but one of the most comprehensive sections in the RGN1 is the part on the use of the RYA logo, maybe that is a hint as to where their (the RYA) priority is?

 

[Old Dog]

I'm flattered that you're interested. My position is that I'm looking forward to hearing some more facts, maybe in the "court hearing" [1] and possibly even in the coming YM interview with Charlie Sturrock.

[1] http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/530725/sailing-school-faces-court-hearing

As facts have been lacking in a lot of this and the thread after the "event" I understand he is quite keen to be able to air a few of them. The facts first hand are very different from most things so far said.

 

[VO5]

Perhaps because the learning process was by rote and not by showing students how to find stuff out for themselves. First mate and I keep a small library and we love reading. Before the advent of home computers and the internet I told my elder son that whatever he wanted to know he could find it out from a book. Now of course its probably on the internet. He took this information to heart and became inquisitive and researched all sorts of stuff that he was interested in. I think I am trying to say that, like a good University, the students are given the tools to do the work. How they use these tools is an indication of how their minds work and sets out the basics of how they might progress in the future. This will be true of any subject, including sailing. The fact that higher education works this way and has done for many years would tend, I believe, to reinforce this theory, simplistic as it is. I must say its been a pleasure reading your thoughts, and Tranona's, on this subject. Perhaps 'Ol toady might get a few clues on how to conduct a debate on line! Thank you both.

Funny you should say that, SWMBO and I are bookworms too, although our reading interests are different. We also have a sizeable library. I remember on one house move I had prepacked all our books into smaller boxes rather than tea chests to economise on weight. The movers were taken aback by the quantities of boxes with books in them.
Halfway up the stairs SWMBO got in the path of one of the moving crew who remarked "Lady ! All these books you've got....why didn't you read them before we came ?" LOL.
Undoubtedly reading is a great method of aquiring knowledge, so we sing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.
But before the desire to acquire the knowledge takes hold, we have to start somewhere. That somewhere has to emanate from curiosity stimulated by an idea or a group of ideas. That is why I mention rote. Not rote all the way but just rote to kick things off.
When I was a child and my mother used to take me for a morning swim in the summer, all the way to the lido and all the way back she made me recite the multiplication tables up to 20 times. I thought..."How tedious is this...and when am I going to get relief from this ?"...rote, you see ?
But nowadays when my peers grab a calculator to do the simplest of calculations I do them in my head, like a sort of super rapid abstract abacus. If I had not been taught the basics by rote, today I would not enjoy the luxury of really confident and accurate mental arithmetic which impinges in many areas of my life and is the real prize.

 

[Old Dog]

Miles for CI

ref dt4134 #245

A zero to hero with 2500 miles can go for CI the day after he has passed his YM exam! View as a YMI is that this is wrong on so many levels.

 

[Old Dog]

Great to be wise after the event. Has the official hearing of the events pertaining to the RNLI rescue taken place yet? By what knowledge are you judgeing this skipper? The company who are employing or hiring you as self employed cannot say when you go to sea or not or should attempt to influence a skipper in any way. You have got to be joking. Imagine Nelson at Trafalger on the VHF with poor reception. The RYA are hardly in a position to judge anyone on anything as if you are an RYA instructor for example one never hears from them unless something goes wrong. I think we all should wait until the result of the inquiry before coming to conclusions. Every thing nowadays is to controlled and legislated for. Can we not accept SH-- happens.

Good one, well said.

 

[Old Dog]

I reckon the mods should introduce another board called " the kangaroo court". We could put this thread into it along with the Rocna one and the Costa Concordia - indeed any thread which relates to an accident that someone else had.

Then as perfect sailors who have never cocked up, we can sit in judgement on the sinners.

LOL

 

[cgull]

Brilliant- but optional, not as some would have compulsory. I'll check it out.

Remembered now..David Melville was Instructor. Where is he now?