VO5
New member
That's very good. More of that is needed.
Hot Liquid stripped of RYA recognition
- Thread starter islandsailor
- Start date
That's very good. More of that is needed.
rotrax
Well-known member
It is not that difficult.
Instead of recommending people to read Heavy Weather Sailing (Adlard Coles) ...and then letting them to get on with it as best they can,the topic ought to be delivered in a properly structured fashion in a series of specific dedicated lectures in a classroom.
Following these, a question and answer session at the end of each lecture delivered.
Following this, a series of videos showing vessels doing the wrong things in heavy weather, from fishing boats to trawlers, from passenger liners to freight carriers, from patrol boats to vessels under sail.
After all the theoretical aspect is delivered, then the class invited to go out to sea, in fair weather for them to enact what they have been taught and for each to take turns at being skipper and for all of them to demonstrate the skills learnt.
I dont have a copy of the book you mention,but I have a well thumbed copy of Tom Cunliffe's Heavy Weather Cruising. It is a good read as well as making it uneccessary to visit a classroom. While theory is essential, it can be aquired quite easily by books or IT at a pace to suit the reader, not the instructor or course framework. I have not done an RYA classroom course at all. I found out the sylabus, bought the textbooks and read them, completing the exercises included. I then took practical courses, making it clear to the instuctors what I had done. We are all different you see, and I am able to sort the theory out in the way I have described. My method is unlikely to suit everyone, a classroom course may be right for others. BUT- lets cut to the chase-surely it is better to avoid severe weather if possible. If HL's Skipper had done this we would not have had this sometimes entertaining dispute........
rotrax
Well-known member
Brilliant- but optional, not as some would have compulsory. I'll check it out.
DaveS
Well-known member
Sorry, I don't wish to play your game. Life's too short.
capnsensible
Well-known member
Vehemently, no. But I have actually told you on two threads how to find the rules that Recognised Training Centres work by.
How to obtain the RGN1 notice.
I have provided you with the telephone number of the RYA for you to call.
I have given you the name of the person to talk to.
I conclude that you deliberately and with malice continue to provoke any poster in order to satisfy your own agenda.
I will still, however, be available in public forum or by personal message, to help you with your questions and hope that your call to the RYA will be answered to your satisfaction and you will be able to report the results here.
Despite you calling me a liar, here, I will still help you, if you wish.
CS
rotrax
Well-known member
What a quandry 'Ol toady's in now! How does he get out of this one! Watch next weeks exiting episode as our serial concludes.........
Tranona
Well-known member
There is nothing new in Toad's approach to this topic. He consistently refuses to do anything for himself. No matter how many times he is referred to sources - or even at one point personally invited by the RYA to visit to discuss his concerns, he prefers to remain ignorant.
You can see his point of view - by maintaining his ignorance he can continue to make statements that have no basis in fact - only in his mind.
You lot are just feeding him with lines - he has no intention of ever contributing anything - even a coherent argument is beyond him as you can see.
rotrax
Well-known member
It is not that difficult.
Instead of recommending people to read Heavy Weather Sailing (Adlard Coles) ...and then letting them to get on with it as best they can,
Following these, a question and answer session at the end of each lecture delivered.
Following this, a series of videos showing vessels doing the wrong things in heavy weather, from fishing boats to trawlers, from passenger liners to freight carriers, from patrol boats to vessels under sail.
After all the theoretical aspect is delivered, then the class invited to go out to sea, in fair weather for them to enact what they have been taught and for each to take turns at being skipper and for all of them to demonstrate the skills learnt.
I can see exactly where you are coming from, and the idea you give has merit. But it is not practical in any sense-the trainees will be getting info./advice and theoretical moves to make in certain conditions in a classroom. We all know it is virtually impossible to get the weather you want when you want it. It is for First Mate and I anyway! Going out in non storm conditions is not going to teach trainees much, not even going to show them how difficult it is to move around the boat, how tight you need to hold on ,how to get your gear off to use the heads! Although we have not personaly experienced a severe storm at sea we have had our moments-West Pole to Chichester entrance at slack water in a top of a 6 SE blow-very lumpy and a wild ride. Cowes to Beuliegh river in a 7 gusting 8 from due west last year -we were down to threequarters of a knot on occaisions. We left Gosport in reasonable conditions for us and our crew but I had to divert to Cowes and go up the mast to repair a lazyjack line that parted. By the time the repairs were made the weather was increasing. But its only a spit over to Beuliegh isnt it? Thats how you learn in the real world, you make decisions based on the infirmation you have, the strength of the crew and the atributes of your vessel. First mate and I would not have gone on our own, but we had good crew, a strong boat and time enough,even at our slow pace directly into it to get over the bar before it was hazardous. One of the little trueisms I try to adhere to in my life is from Mao's little red book "True knowlege is the product of direct experience" Works for me. The commercial sailing shcool offering heavy weather training sounds good and we may look into that. Perhaps we may meet you there?
rotrax
Well-known member
I am begining to realise this- you are bang on.
VO5
New member
I take your point. I assure you I am not here to argue.
The RYA does not run classroom courses followed by practical demo for heavy weather sailing. They outline the topic and then leave candidates to choose. They follow the same policy with other potentially dangerous topics and I am not going to get embroiled in detail.
But learning in a classroom has its merits because it gives delegates the opportunity to learn together because not only can the topic be explained and explored in depth but the added benefit that if one delegate asks a question the others did not think of, everybody present benefits from the answer.
I am therefore in favour of classroom tuition for these reasons.
I am certain that if this policy had been pursued with the skipper of Hot Liquid and he had been properly tutored in depth in a classroom with others the question of forecasting extended from a meteorological synopsis would have been thrashed out to his benefit, therefore educating him to have the means to make a sound judgement in advance of a very serious situation developing and what is more to enable him to decide not to sail backed up by sound reasoning that no one could contradict.
By the way, the list of equipment you mention you carry in the event of meeting heavy weather is short of two items.
The rest of you keep quiet please.
Consider carefully what they might be and let me have your answer.
newman123
New member
Mca prosecution
The important thing here is that lessons are learnt, and until the investigation and court case conclude we do not actually know what those lessons are beyond the obvious.
It is worth considering that the MCA do not prosecute lightly or very often.
The important thing here is that lessons are learnt, and until the investigation and court case conclude we do not actually know what those lessons are beyond the obvious.
It is worth considering that the MCA do not prosecute lightly or very often.
rotrax
Well-known member
I take your point. I assure you I am not here to argue.
The RYA does not run classroom courses followed by practical demo for heavy weather sailing. They outline the topic and then leave candidates to choose. They follow the same policy with other potentially dangerous topics and I am not going to get embroiled in detail.
But learning in a classroom has its merits because it gives delegates the opportunity to learn together because not only can the topic be explained and explored in depth but the added benefit that if one delegate asks a question the others did not think of, everybody present benefits from the answer.
I am therefore in favour of classroom tuition for these reasons.
I am certain that if this policy had been pursued with the skipper of Hot Liquid and he had been properly tutored in depth in a classroom with others the question of forecasting extended from a meteorological synopsis would have been thrashed out to his benefit, therefore educating him to have the means to make a sound judgement in advance of a very serious situation developing and what is more to enable him to decide not to sail backed up by sound reasoning that no one could contradict.
By the way, the list of equipment you mention you carry in the event of meeting heavy weather is short of two items.
The rest of you keep quiet please.
Consider carefully what they might be and let me have your answer.
Our boat was subject to a Boat Safety Check by a local representitive of the RLNI last year. He made no reccomendations, so although I may of ommited to mention them, its pretty likely that we have them. We dont have a sea anchor, and in my opinion the jury is out on them as they can apply tremendous loads to the vessel and be difficult to recover. We do have over 80 metres of heavy warp that can be trailed astern in a bight when running should this be required.
VO5
New member
If I am invited to attend, yes.
I would be happy to fill all the gaps missing.
Because the object is to keep people safe and to save lives.
I am now very near my 66th birthday.
I have been sailing since 1971 ish.
Yachtmaster Ocean Ticket (BOT) 1974., about 15000 on the clock.
65 is the cutoff age for instructors under the RYA scheme.
But I am happy to contribute in any event.
VO5
New member
Good, you have trailing warps at least.
The second item...
You ought to seriously consider carrying an emergency tiller.
Tranona
Well-known member
While there is a great deal of merit in "classroom" teaching of theory and subsequent practical demonstration, this is not the only, nor necessarily most effective way to learn.
There is extensive evidence that people learn in different ways, particularly mature adults where the learning is set against a background of life experience. The "empty head - fill it up" style that used to dominate schooling is just not appropriate for many people.
The RYA approach of testing "competence" is mainstream thinking in relation to testing the application of knowledge and practical skills. The certificates (not classroom completion) are issued when you can demonstrate that you can meet the required standard - independent of how you learned what is required.
Clearly for many the classroom route to acquire the underpinning knowledge is a good way, as it brings with it the opportunity for discussion and learning from others. However the syllabus needs to reflect the competencies that are required for the level of assessment.
I would suggest that extreme heavy weather sailing is well away from what most people require to safely navigate a pleasure yacht. Awareness of the dangers of heavy weather is of course important as is strategies on how to avoid it. But people get through a whole lifetime of sailing and never meet extreme weather.
In the case we are discussing, there does not seem to be any suggestion that the very experienced skipper was not capable of handling heavy weather - the criticism is that he set sail when all the available information was suggesting that was not a sound strategy - unless the objective was to test the variable crew at the extremes. It is not clear why he made the decision, or whether it was made for him. Clearly the RYA and MCA are investigating both skipper and management, and the RYA has come to conclusion so far that they have seen enough to justify suspension of at least the management - unclear whether the skipper has had his ticket suspended. We will not know until the outcome of the MCA action is published.
dt4134
New member
Did you miss a nought off that?
rotrax
Well-known member
Yes-our boat has one, nice big heavy one clipped under the starboard side lazzarette cover. It is standard equipment and only needs a cover lifting in the centre of the helm seat to install it. Might need to disconnect the autopilot if that went wrong, but thats only a couple of mins. work. Our previous boat was a GibSea 96, with tiller steering. I thought the tiller was vunerable to breaking should a body get thrown on it during bad weather, so I had my nephew make me a spare. Sold the boat a few weeks after to get the one we have now.I think it's called a "Senior Moment!" No regrets, but a much smaller bank balance. Thank you for the advice.
rotrax
Well-known member
It appears that you may not require that sort of training with a CV like that! I am always asking guys like you questions so I can improve my understanding and knowlege. If you dont ask, you dont get. I do however use another bit of homespun wisdom which stood me in good stead during my Motorcycle Racing career. "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see!" As Tranona says, armed with lifes experience you can find out what you need to know in many ways, and you can also select the ones that suit you. I have just had an awfull thought- imagine being on a classroom training course with 'Ol toady-would he treat the instructor to the same stuff he dishes out on this post?
VO5
New member
The key to effective instruction is the agenda, the syllabus and how much detail it contains.
If the syllabus is incomplete any instruction is a waste of time because gaps are left as a consequence. Sod's law it will be that these gaps are the ones someone will fall through eventually.
Then if the agenda is a complete one and delivered in structure, in a simple way that anyone can understand the mission to educate and empower is fulfilled.
I am in favour of the time honoured method of teaching by rote, with opprtunites for questions to be asked throughout the progression of the agenda, and for notes to be taken and then for revision to ensure candidates have thoroughly understood.
What we have nowadays is a lot of book learning, easily corrupted into a form of throwaway learning. Book learning and education are two very different concepts. But in this era book learning passes for education, unfortunately.
But nowadays this type of tuition is not fashionable. People want instant gratification. Instant gratification is delivered easily when the motive is commercially driven as a form of book learning disguised as education.
When an agenda is delivered in proper structure even the most cantakerous of pupils will finally realise that what he is recieving is education which has real value, whereas if he were to be recieving book learning the consideration would just be the price. Do I make myself clear ?
Grumpybear
New member
VO5
You do, but your position does have some gaps in it.
I hope you are not saying that it is not worth teaching anything unless you teach everything. If so, it would follow that only a 100% pass rate is acceptable!
Also, it is not always the case that self taught people are always less well educated than those formally educated by professionals. Your approach assumes that the teachers already know pretty well everything from both clasroom teaching and enormous experience, which would imply a vanishingly small number of them.
in a perfect world you would be right, but in practice the number of people sailing would be very greatly limited to those with both the time and the esources to undertake very expensive and extensive training and practice. given that the majority of leisure sailors will never need the extreme knowledge and experience to deal with conditions which they will almost always plan or contrive to avoid, you would deny them access to our sport. what a pity that would be.
getting back to the point of this thread, it seems to me from the evidence already posted, including an account from one of the survivors, that the skipper made a rash call. We do not yet know whether he did so out of ignorance, innocence, bravado or pressure from his employer. The MCA investigation should establish this, and enable them to decide whether prosecution under the law should follow. Some of the posters on this forum seem to be hell bent on avoiding this position in both directions; why this should be God only knows.
Giles
You do, but your position does have some gaps in it.
I hope you are not saying that it is not worth teaching anything unless you teach everything. If so, it would follow that only a 100% pass rate is acceptable!
Also, it is not always the case that self taught people are always less well educated than those formally educated by professionals. Your approach assumes that the teachers already know pretty well everything from both clasroom teaching and enormous experience, which would imply a vanishingly small number of them.
in a perfect world you would be right, but in practice the number of people sailing would be very greatly limited to those with both the time and the esources to undertake very expensive and extensive training and practice. given that the majority of leisure sailors will never need the extreme knowledge and experience to deal with conditions which they will almost always plan or contrive to avoid, you would deny them access to our sport. what a pity that would be.
getting back to the point of this thread, it seems to me from the evidence already posted, including an account from one of the survivors, that the skipper made a rash call. We do not yet know whether he did so out of ignorance, innocence, bravado or pressure from his employer. The MCA investigation should establish this, and enable them to decide whether prosecution under the law should follow. Some of the posters on this forum seem to be hell bent on avoiding this position in both directions; why this should be God only knows.
Giles
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