Holding tanks - a matter of responsibility?

[willtaylor]

I have followed a lengthy previous discussion about holding tanks. The focus seemed to be on avoiding implicitly unnecessary regulation. Like most posters here I value my liberty and individuality. However, there are civilising reponsibilities to the welfare of others and the environment which to some degree constrain my absolute freedom.

I still remember how I learned not to fall off waterskis by being towed over an extensive sewage outfall on the Costa Brava. Thirty five years ago that seemed like a joke, but I can remember the contempt we felt towards the offending Spanish townsfolk. (At the same time Dartmouth and Brixham also continued to discharge untreated sewage - we didn't think of that). However, I do know I would not like my granddaughter to learn to water ski or windsurf in the same fashion. I also know that the town on the Costa Brava cleaned up its act long ago.

Surely it is good practice for liveaboard yachts to have some means of avoiding polluting waters close to bathing beaches and busy anchorages, even if there are no nearby pump-out facilities. Ideally any container will take the shape of an adequate holding tank capable of being pumped out and of being emptied in suitable offshore locations.

Free offshore discharge will probably become increasingly sensitive in inland seas like the Med and the Baltic. Regulation may eventually be justified if sailing and boating continues to increase in popularity - however much it represents a restriction on freedom to discharge effluent. But stricter regulation must go hand in hand with extensive and attractively cheap facilties.

It may be that the absolute need is not yet there and that it will remain acceptable to discharge in deep water several miles from the shore for years to come. Eventually, however, the boating commmunity may have to accept that it is imprudent to shit on our own doorstep and uncivilised to do it on someone else's.

Europe (in which I include the UK) is awash with tragic evidence of the effects of long term pollution of all kinds. Many among those of us who love to go to sea do so because we respect and enjoy nature. The more of us there are, the greater threat we could pose to that which we love. It is a problem of the democratisation of a pleasure we enjoy and, by our enjoyment, encourage.

I do not yet have a holding tank but intend to fit one before we too sail for the med this Autumn or nex spring.

I guess this will seem very po-faced (!) to many of you. No offence is intended, just food for thought.

Will Taylor

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[tony_brighton]

Not really - we've just fitted one for the same reasons.

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[Talbot]

Totally agree with you, I am drawing up plans on my fit having had a good dialogue with the Headmistress.

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[Rhoel]

I currently have both sea toilet and porta-potty (or port-potty as one crew calls it). When in port, the sea toilet space becomes a useful sail-locker/storage space, the porta-loo fits very neatly under the V-berth forward. This solution seems to prevent foul smells from any holding tank from filling the cabin.

I trust when visitng the Med that such a combination will placate the officials in the near future.

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[steve_cronin]

I think most people get put off because of the trouble getting (& fitting) a suitable tank in the Med. and the consequent loss of stowage capacity.

Two boats ago (& that's nearly 20 years ago) we had a porta potti that could be pumped out in deep water (or taken to a public loo for that matter) It worked fine and had around six person-days capacity.

Now our current boat (Bavaria 42) has two loos and I'm thinking of replacing one with another porta potti and coupling it to the existing skin fittings but the outlet via a diaphragm bilge pump.

Since all we require is to not pollute harbours and anchorages and we spend (two of us generally) no more than three days in one place - and if we do overstay this there are always taverna loos on shore - this should work adequately as we can pump out when well offshore and too deep for the sounder to work.

Not an absolute solution but better than the majority of boats offer in the eastern med at the moment. I know for a fact that many charter companies have given up with holding tanks as their customers clog them up with ease. Maybe the Greeks, not being an uncivilised race don't mind "shitting on their own patch" and don't mind foreigners doing it either. What makes me hesitate to comment "when in Rome"?

Any thoughts?

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[muchy_]

Human waste is only food waste and will be broken down by bacteria, which is ok in the quantities being released from yachts at sea. It's the sewage outfalls that need cleaning up because the quantity is far to much for the environment to handle.

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[steve_cronin]

ERRRR...

Slight correction:-

Shouldn't that be bacteria and Grey Mullett?

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[goupil]

One day or another we'll have to do so, for marine life or ours! To have a refreshing bath in some busy anchorages become a challenge!
Steve, before you commit yourself with Porta-Potti have a look at the holding tank kit for your current loo: 25 liters, easy to fit around the bowl with a 2 ways valve for discharge, about 250 € in France.

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[jeanne]

I posted on the previous thread, saying that there were no regulations being enforced in Spanish waters. I suppose that may be read as an 'anti-tank' view, but in fact I have a tank, and use it when appropriate.
It is not a simple subject, though. Until there are easy pump-out facilities, the rules are unlikely to have much effect. My tank seemed quite large [it is about 20 gallons] until it was put into use, when it proved to be good for a few days only. [You have to remember that most of the contents will be the loo flushing water, so no jokes about Indian restaurants!] Few long term liveaboards will leave harbour that frequently, just to empty a tank. We are currently moored in Sanlucar de Guadiana [see the current PBO] which has a sewage treatment plant which has not been in service for some years. I guess they are unlikely to worry about a few yachts, when the rest of the town is in the same position.
By the way, don't believe all the 'Facts' in the PBO article.


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[HaraldS]

My thinking is, that like with most matters, it is a question of quantities. Not an expert on this, but appears to me that up to certain levels, nature quite happyly deals with these natural by-products. It seems the concentration in some places is a real problem. - But then we should still be far from a problem when dumping our tanks offshore; even in the Med and Baltic.
Never the less I'm afraid we will see more regulations, simply because the sailing community doesn't have a powerfull enough lobby to fend those off.
I have been sailing a lot in the US , where this is matter is extremely regulated and a head is called an MSD. Sure a good idea in some confined places, I think they have gone over board on that, and it can be very inconvient trying to find a pump-out. Contrast this to not signing Koyoto, allowing the industry to pollute like they feel, and have tons of fertilizer go into the rivers and the sea, and you see what I mean.
I hope that in the parts of the world I sail, we can get along with just being reasonable for some longer time. We use our holding tanks in anchorages and harbours and pump them out at sea. And I feel that is pretty reasonable.


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[Anonymous]

I think we need to draw the distinction between solid human waste, which often contains pathogens, and urine which is (usually) almost sterile. Urine is likely to be far less damaging to the environment than many detergents (clothes, body, dish, and deck washing).

In our present boat we only have one sea toilet and we use the shore facilties wherever reasonably possible for solids, but we don't worry about liquid waste. This is in tidal water, I grant you, but small quantities of urine are not an environmental problem.

As another poster has commented, I cannot see any liveaboard who is safely tucked up for the winter, stern to, with a well-placed anchor, steaming several miles out to sea to empty the tank every few days! It isn't realistic. To make the scheme work, mobile pump-outs will need to be available to visit the yachts at their moorings, not the other way round.

It's different in the sailing season when most people are wanting to move about and, of course, there are vastly more people on board their boats contributing to the problem. The larger yachts with paid hands tend to stay for a long time in harbour with owners and crew aboard even in the summer. I can't see them steaming out to discharge their waste, either.

I've decided that we will have a holding tank for the same reasons as you, but we will probably not use it for liquid waste or in low season or when it is full and we can't empty it. The provision of pump out facilities should come before any regulations requiring their use.

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[willtaylor]

Thnaks for all the interesting replies.

Of course it all breaks down in the end, but we humans seem capable of remarkably long-term damage given our short-term lives. Global warming and corporate greed certainly represent factors to make individuals throw up their hands in despair. Even so, most of us don't shit in the bath.

Clearly there are practical problems and yes, there is a serious need for action on the pump out issue. I take the point about snugly tied up wintering boats, but I assume that wintering liveaboards can go ashore from time to time. The porta-potti seems useful overnight. Urine, as has been remarked is pretty innocous when diluted.

We used the porta-potti option on a much smaller boat - augmented by a chucking bucket for overnight reponses to my prostate. Two people on a small boat generate the same as two people on a bigger boat that has more room for holding tanks. We even took out the Baby Blake because we were only usng the boat in coastal waters. It's a good solution but of course also demands a willing receptacle for its contents.

It's an interesting problem. However, there must be other topics to do with harmonious relations with people and environments in the lovely places we yotties are free to visit.

Regards to all,

Will Taylor

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[charles_reed]

I don't disagree at all with the sentiments expressed in your post.

At the risk of appearing didactic, may I draw the distinction between holding and buffer tanks. The former only pump out to a shore-based outlet the latter are intended to be pumped out at sea.

Despite all the European mediterranean countries signing a protocol in 1972, vowing to stop pollution entirely, there are, to my knowledge (and I've spent the last 3 years in the Med), no pump-out facilities in the Mediterranean. As you know these are commonplace in the UK and USA.

This means that there is only one "responsible" course of action open to you, to fit and use a buffer tank.

And where do you draw the line, do you include grey water?
As it so happens the organic residue you produce is beneficial to the biosphere (if not to bathers), whereas the sodium lauryl sulphonate in your grey waste is definitely harmful. You HAVE to can both grey and black effluent in the Intracoastal, visiting yachts are boarded (so I've heard) and the toilets and sinks sealed if they don't have the fittings.

Now examine the capacity problem - each person on board will, in 24 hours produce about 4.5-5.0 litres of grey and black effluent (slightly less if you exclude the grey). Assuming you like to be able to anchor for 3 nights at a time with 4 on board, that's quite a big tank for which to find room.

So the situation is not quite as black and white as it appears at first sight and people, besieged by regulations can be forgiven for avoiding an additional challenge.
As far as I know only Greece has some regulations regarding polluting harbours and this is aimed more at hydrocarbon pollution than at human waste.

My buffer tank (which converts to a holding tank) holds 25 litres of black waste only - I try to dissuade female visitors from their continual attempts to wash up (it plays hell with water supplies as well as abusing the biosphere).

It's a pity that nothing is ever plain and simple.

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[Anonymous]

>>It's an interesting problem. However, there must be other topics to do with harmonious relations with people and environments in the lovely places we yotties are free to visit.<<

How about running generators and auxilliaries in an inconsiderate manner and noisy windgens? Noise and fumes pollution can have a seriously harmful effect on mental health and wellbeing.

Or, the use of power tools in a marina in an inconsiderate manner i.e. at times or for durations that are excessive or at intrusive times.

I'd better get off my soap box!

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[MedMan]

Having read all the horror stories of £1,000 fines in Turkey we fitted both grey and black water holding tanks before leaving for the Med. The grey water (from the sinks and shower) is used to flush the toilet, the contents of which then pass to the black water tank. We have only just reached Turkey so this ‘improvement’ has not yet proved to be essential. However, we do feel more comfortable when anchored in crystal-clear water, being able to use the toilet without pumping the evidence overboard. We suspect that nearby swimmers appreciate it even more.

I am not sure I see the distinction between holding and buffer tanks. Ours, like most, can be used for either. Does that make it a 'huffer tank?'

Reading all the posts together there seems to be a group consensus that, what with Grey Mullett eating the solids and urine being relatively 'harmless', pumping out in harbour is not really a problem. However, even a cursory look at the state of the water in any large marina shows that this is not the case. Would you swim in it? It is all a matter of degree. The fish and the microbes can cope with small, or even medium quantities of effluent, but after a certain point, they start to loose the battle. The problem comes when the population of microbes grows to the point when they use up all the available Oxygen at which point everything starts to die and the whole eco-system collapses. Far from being 'harmless', the nitrogen in urine contributes to this process by accelerating the growth of the microbes that use it for food.

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[steve_cronin]

Yes I looked at those and saw through them at once!

That is the problem with those tanks, previous business is all too clearly on view!

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[HaraldS]

according to your definition we must have a buffer-holding tank, as it can either be pumped at a pumping station (have yet to find one) or out into the sea. With a 100 Litres and a 75 Litres tank we seem to be ok for about a week with 4 people.

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[willtaylor]

Thanks for the correction. I want to be able to do both. I shall install a buffer tank. We are mindful of our output. The point about grey water is important too.

I do appreciate the practical problems and am not at all out of sympathy with fellow sailors. However, practical problems are generally what sailing folk enjoy solving. As one correspondent has pointed out, an awful lot of what is stored is the pumped-in flushing water. I think I can site an 80 litre tank in the heads locker.

There is clearly a need to enourage the provision of facilities but, like others, I have no desire to awaken administrative control fetishes among officials or their masters.

I often read your posts. The experience, and helpfulness is alwys evident.

Will

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[Trazie]

We have FREE pump out facility in Vilamoura Marina.


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[charles_reed]

Fantastic

It wasn't there in 2002 when I was last there.
It does look as though some countries may be getting their act together.

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