Holding tanks - a matter of responsibility?

[catmandoo]

Your comment about grey Mullet reminds me of La Maddalena town in Sardinia marina into which the town sewer discharges thick and green. At the estuary interface of this stream and the placid waters of the marina thrive the largest grey mullet I have ever seen. pursued of course by all the town fishermen looking to stock up the local restaurants for the following nights, meals - A perfect biological loop one supposes..
I also wonder where all the female hormones from the Pill in that area end up ? I did not notice any locals men with high pitched voices . perhaps it is only tourists and men from the next town or the US navy personnel in the adjacent base who are affected .

It makes any discharge from a visiting Yotties boat insignificant
Perhaps the Headmistress might like to comment on the dangers inherant is this situation .

Also on a stroll down the Clyde beaches from Troon /Ayr/ Prestwick and the Heads of Ayr (excuse the pun ) the wandering beachcomber will find growing in the sandy soil lots of little tomato plants which will further illustrate my point


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[charles_reed]

E coli

infections of eyes and ears used to be a major risk of bathing in the Med - and still remain so in heavily populated areas. They're extremely difficult to cure because most are highly antibiotic resistant.

As the original poster remarked it's a question of how you see your responsibility.

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[cliffb]

Your comment about the regulations being more strict in the US makes me wonder if this is why a number of the US built yachts seem to specify a Macerator as standard. Would this, I wonder, deal with the problem of clogging holding tanks? Would they also make the discharge of tanks at sea less environmentally harmful?
If the view is that they would...I wonder if they are available in a retrofit form?
Anyone with knowledge out there???

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[bobnewbury]

Re: E coli

Some years ago we chartered a boat in Turkey &, following dire warnings from the company, took great care to ensure that we used the buffer tank & only discharged well offshore.

Nevertheless, as a result of much diving & snorkelling, I managed to return with a nasty, antibiotic-resistant ear infection that tracked through between the muscle blocks to my jaw and (among other things), cost me three teeth, not to mention considerable pain.

I put it down to the fact that the laws seemed to be obeyed by, and enforced upon, only visiting yachts. I know I got mine from the discharges of the various gulets that carry holiday makers on booze & food cruises, because I saw the results of their discharges when they dumped the stuff by me when I was diving.

Nevertheless, I fitted a a 200 litre 'huffer tank' to our boat in readiness for our mediterranean cruise. I also find that in the interim I rest easier in places like Isle de Batz knowing that I can go to the heads in the middle of the night with a clear conscience.

It's only common decency after all. Mind you, I read recently that cruise liners discharge up to 130 000 litres of untreated effluent a day. There's a good place to start.

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[charles_reed]

Beware confusing self

It's the petroleum based effluents, including detergents, which are harmful to the environment.
Your waste products are eagerly consumed by a number of organisms lower down the food-chain and could be considered (certainly by them) as eco-friendly.

However bacteria in human faeces are frequently antibiotic resistant and sometimes highly contagious.

So fitting and using holding tanks for "black" water is a kindness to human bathers - using a holding tank for "grey" water is genuinely eco-friendly.

Like that other fallacy - global warming, often reads as "Human contribution to global warming". That the world is warming is difficult to deny (though the evidence is not cut and dried) that human contribution has any significant effect is totally unproven and could well be considered as a marvellous example of human self-importance.

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[steve_cronin]

Courage mon brave!

I would only modify what you say by the insertion of the word "over" between "self" and "importance". I admit that this may not be altogether grammatically correct but it would be more descriptive of what I think you are saying!

Courage indeed Charles to dare to contest the " global warming is all man's fault" lobby here or on any forum for that matter.

My next door neighbour (not the one who's sailing around the world) seems to think that the only pollution the world would be best rid of is the human race or more accurately, the Western human race!

On the subject of grey waste, there are some harbours in Greece like Santorini or Mykonos (Oooh Er) where you just wouldn't want to spoil the clarity of the water and the very strict control inforced by the Port Police is understandable but there are other ports like Aigina, Methana or Poros where the local sewer just runs into the harbour so your little bit extra won't make any difference. Even if there were shore disposals for tank waste, it would probably end up sooner or later (probably sooner) back in the harbour in some of these places anyway.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[Bayfly]

Re: Beware confusing self

Such a learned discussion on such a mundane subject! I can only add one bit of useful advice......we always put up a notice in the heads when visitors are expected, which reads, 'Don't put anything through this that hasn't been through you!.....-which seems to keep things clear in both senses. Of course, you must remember to provide a suitable receptacle for the other stuff!

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[steve_cronin]

Re: Beware confusing self

If paper as a possible blocker worries you, try using the paper especially made for chemical loos. It dissolves soon after being immersed.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[mocruising]

Re:

Does that mean I have to stop eating grey Mullet!!!

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[milltech]

Wasn\'t Estartit was it?

If so I was probably driving the boat!

<hr width=100% size=1>John
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allgadgets.co.uk>http://www.allgadgets.co.uk</A>

 

[HaraldS]

been away on my boat, just now seeing your question.

Years back, before most of the nice sailing areas in the US become ZERO discharge zones, many larger boats had complete sewer treatment tanks, they would be loaded with macerated stuff and then accelearte the natural process, by stirring and I think electrolytic aid. The final waste would be grey and neutral.
I think nowadays it's not worth it any more since you can't even dump the treated stuff in most places.

A prerequsite for treatment was chopping the stuff thinly. But a macerator still makes sense against clogging and most electrical toilets of today have them built in.

We learned alot of this the hard way with our new boat. Our yard had just come up with the great idea to hang the tanks high, right under the deck so that they would gravity drain if you opened the seacock. Being a fan of simplicity I said fine to that idea and the other one to always go through the tank and not have a diversion valve for pumping straight out. To make things even simpler I thought I'd also go away from the specified electric toilets and have them fit the standard Jabsco manual ones.

The result was, that the thin stuff leaves happily and a heap builds up at the bottom of the tank covering and clogging the drain hole (1 1/2 "). There was also no good way to tell if tanks were indeed empty.

So on our first cruise, we thought we had the tanks empty before we went into a harbor. Boats were rafting up there and for some time we had a smaller yacht alongside. Luckily she left before the tank fully filled and the fine liquid started to come out the vent hole when flushing the toilet...

Then we tryed various things to empty the tanks, but had no luck until I had the idea to put a leak plug into the vent hole and pressurize the tank by flushing the toilet. Must say the tanks are solid 316L stainless steel otherwise I wouldn't have dared that. It worked and after some pumping there was literal "break through"!

So we went on for the first season with this system and then brought the boat back to the yard where they fitted strong SeaLand T-Pumps to suck out the tanks - to their credit at no extra charge. These pumps work fine and have never failed to drain a tank. A small problem is that if you forget to open the sea cock and start the pump, the check valves in the pump will invert, they don't break but it's still a mess to fix.

From what I could tell, the boats that had the standard electric toilets got away fine with just the gravity draining of the tanks.

A further problem with the tank way higher than the toilet is the back pressure that makes it through the check valves once and so often, especially since some scale builds up on those. Also it turned out the input to the tank was also at the bottom with no pipe inside going up. This could mean that a whole tank could flow back into the boat.

My nephew had that great experience when he serviced the forward toilet, without pumping out the tank before. If you have the bandwidth for a 16MB funny movie of this desaster look at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.taniwani.de>http://www.taniwani.de

 

[LadyInBed]

Thank you Harald you have put my mind at rest, I have a buffer tank fed from a macerator. I was concerned about the amount of water the electric toilet put through the system so filling the tank in short order. I have been thinking about interchanging the toilets, as the other is manual, to reduce the water flow. I won't bother now, manual heads for liquid waste.

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[jeanne]

Re: Beware confusing self

I'm very interested in in the idea of an easily soluble paper, meant for chemical loos. My house has the usual [but disagreeable ] rural spanish system of putting the loo paper in a container, not in the loo, due to the high risk of blockages[something to do with small diameter pipes?], and I would welcome an alternative. Do you know a trade name or a source for the paper?

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[Anonymous]

Toilet Macerators - ashore

Try http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/968/shopscr4.html or www.plumb-warehouse.co.uk where you will find a whole range of macerators for land use. I think this is what you need.

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[willtaylor]

Oops!

Seem to have struck paydirt!

I have been away for a while and was astonished to see the story still running. Maybe we can rival 'The Archers'?

It is an interesting discussion and seems to have attracted a good deal of wisdom from a number of very experienced regular contributors to these pages. As such the discourse shows the value of this forum.

Of course there are ironies: I remember many years ago when the good people of Dartmouth were being encouraged to resist new marinas on the grounds that there might be 300 yachts discharging raw sewage into the river. The scare had some potency. However, I believe that at that time the entire population of that lovely town was accustomed to discharge raw sewage into the sea.

As to puny, self-important man's contribution to global climatic change - well that is a lively debate in itself. However, I don't think we can deny our species' contribution to global pollution and desecration of the natural environment: Teesdide, the Ruhr, Chernobyl, Los Angeles .......... careful, not to step on toes!

probably 'we' have been at it for a long time; there are many salutary myths including Pandora's Box and the Garden of Eden.

Happy Easter!

Will Taylor




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[sundance]

I'll try to make it short and keep to the point!

I find it most disturbing in this day and age, that even a discussion on this topic should take place - particularly among cruising sailors. It is impossible for me to accept that there are those among us that still consider it OK or acceptable to discharge human waste into a harbour, marina, anchorage etc.

I find it particularly disturbing when I read something by a "bucket and chuck it" type who speaks about his sanitary arrangement as if there is something hip or macho, or smart about chucking a bucket full of solid human waste into an otherwise pristine anchorage, where others swim and take time out. Regrettably, I have to include such long term sailing icons as Larry and Lin Pardey when I point the finger here. They make a point of finding some of the lovliest anchorages on Mother Earth and then, without thought, proceed to defile them, without regard for the consequences or for those others present.

I also feel that when it comes to macerators there is, again, no discussion. Clogging up the boat's head sytem is not the real issue. Unmacerated human waste discharged a mile or two out to sea, will most likely end up floating back towards a beach or into another delightful anchorage. The macerator macerates and breaks down solid waste into small particles, that sink, are easily dissipated, integrated and lost in the sea; rendered invisible and virtually harmless.

EVERYONE MUST act responsibly on this issue, or we may as well all give up cruising..................and swimming in the sea!

Some years ago I dived with glee into the lovely anchorage at Cane Garden Bay in the BVI for my early morning swim. I delighted in being first up and out and having the water all to myself. But alas, I was not alone. Within minutes I found myself swimming among a solid waste discharge from one of our cruising neighbours!

Some neighbours!!




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[tcm]

pedantically, vilamoura isn't inthe med! But sotogrande, is in the med, and does seem to have pumpout.

I wd say that responsible liveaboards are leading the way here it seems! But lots if not most of the problem is from bigger charter boats, some sail mostly power which hardly move but have crews living on them all the time. A blackwater tank lasts not many days.

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[Martin_e]

A very interesting thread. My dad lived in Greece for ten years and had two treatment tanks on his ketch. No holding tank, the wc just pumped into the 10l tank which macerated it, zaped it and then pumped out a very, very light grey waist. Even in the best crystal clear bays it was un noticed. I am fitting one to my boat here in Norway. Check out this web site. http://www.raritaneng.com.
Not as cheap as a holding tank but a lot smaller and would seem to be approved etc. Plus works well. Not for the KISS people but if we all have to go to shore to pump out I do not think that is very KISS either.

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