Helicopter Rescue off Dover

[Boomshanka]

^^^ some thoughtful reflections there. You raise an interesting point about questionning the skipper's judgment. Firstly, there is the notion of trusting the skipper... three dimension come into play here (assuming you don't know the skipper): 1) the belief in the skipper's ability or domain-specific knowledge (RYA Yachtmaster ticket for instance would count here); 2) benevolence - the extent to which you think the skipper would act in the best interests of the collective group; and 3) the perception of integrity where you believe the skipper will stick to a set of principles, and behave in accordance with their promises. If you have no reason to doubt these three, then it's quite plausible to proceed on the basis of trust. The second issue here is subserviance to authority... check out the Milgram studies to see just how easy it is for a figure of authority to get folk to do things that post-event are most obviously irrational.

I can see how it would be hard for an inexperienced crew to question the skipper's decision (perhaps crew should look out for Twitter feeds in the background before departing).

 

[Blueboatman]

According to Newman123 the No3 headsail had to be brought down involving a knife.
Presumably that meant it would not be going up again should it be required. EG engine underpowered for punching into a haven or, worse, overheating at full chat through sucking air in these wave and wind conditions esp once athwart the weather...
In the video, similarly it doesn't look as though the trysail had been rigged at all. Plenty of windage from the main though. So thats all right.

This is a meant to be a training boat that practises emergency routines thoroughly and consistently, according to HLs supporters.

 

[Joker]

Just thinking for a moment - I myself would not like to enter any of the ports en route - certainly not Brighton, not keen on Dover or Newhaven either, so what would the best option be?

Eastbourne? Well sheltered from the west.

 

[jimi]

hmmm.. have you seen the depths in the approaches to Eastbourne? I rather suspect that you'd be bouncing off the sand in the troughs and knocked down by breaking waves in a F10


I know this was SE not W but it bears reading
http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/media_centre/pressrelease_detail?articleid=103507

 

[m_e_d]

Quiet Hot Liquid stand at the boat show

I was at the boatshow today and had to walk past the Hot Liquid stand having sat and read this set of posts last night. Have to say it was very quiet. Just a single lady sat meekly in the corner not catching anyone's eye......would not liked to have been her!!!!

I am a long time sailor, with a commercially endorsed YM. I truly do not understand the mentality of the skipper. When you have fare paying passengers on board you cannot be so reckless....I am not saying you can when you don't have fare paying passengers before anyone says anything.

Clearly no or a minimal risk assessment was carried out before this trip.

 

[Pete R]

So, Hot Liquid Sailing has provided a real life case study and one that I think I will remember for some time to come. You never know, what I have learned might just stop me ending up in the same situation. Perhaps this and similar cases should be written up and be included in RYA training?

What a cracking post Phill. Maybe if this was the opening post then some of the hysteria on this forum would not have happened.

The way you have gone through the various points shows to me you are much more than a novice and/or have had some good instruction.

Similar cases (and now this one for the future) are used by most schools and instructors every single day in teaching and for that matter anyone else that is maybe just going out for a little sail on their own or with their nearest and dearest.

 

[Babylon]

... I can see how it would be hard for an inexperienced crew to question the skipper's decision...

I'm reminded when, my fourteen year old nephew and I being two complete novices on the first day of our comp crew course, the instructor-skipper set off for France. The weather wasn't that bad but the night before a near gale had blown itself out and the Channel was still pretty uncomfortable. Four hours south of Bembridge, once half the boat had puked (including myself and a coastal skipper prep week candidate) it occurred to me that two full days out of five crossing the Channel and back again would leave precious little time for all the usual inshore stuff I imagined we'd be doing. When I suggested this to the instructor, he agreed and we returned back to Portsmouth.

The next four days within the Solent were a most fantastic learning experience, which - combined with that first day in dirty conditions - got me completely hooked on sailing.

I can only imagine the instructor (a super guy and a really good teacher) was a little bored with the usual haunts and had just felt like a bit of passage-making. But the fact that he took on board a complete novice's point of view is all credit to him.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

It certainly reads rather confusingly to me. You seem to be giving one of the "inexperienced" paying crew a telling-off, and I can't understand why.

Pete

Hi Pete... certainly could be viewed that way on reflection - not intended.
Apologies to newman123, my comments were aimed of course at the skipper who has all the RYA qualifications and seemingly this trip applied little of it regarding the safety issues.
If newman123 could enlighten us all when he puts in his written report, it could save another skipper from similar mistakes.
S.

 

[Storyline]

hmmm.. have you seen the depths in the approaches to Eastbourne? I rather suspect that you'd be bouncing off the sand in the troughs and knocked down by breaking waves in a F10


I know this was SE not W but it bears reading
http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/media_centre/pressrelease_detail?articleid=103507

That is sobering reading indeed.

 

[Mikew1]

Having trained and sailed with hot liquid for a number of years now I can say that I have never found them to be anything other than very professional and as others, who have sailed with them, have pointed out most consciencious about safety and the wellbeing and happiness of the crew. The skill and knowledge of the skippers has in my experience always been top notch. I think I can best illustrate this by the fact that when others now come sailing with me they often comment on how re-assured they feel even when the going gets somehat challenging. I put this down in large part to the excellent training I received.

 

[Searush]

FFS, Day Skipper is a pretty basic qual, suitable for coastal trips in reasonable weather with a competent crew. It is NOT saying you are capable of taking a 40 footer on a severe weather delivery trip thro one of the busiest shipping areas in the World.

Newman123 has also pointed out that they had not sailed for 3 years, The decision not to take the helm when running in those conditions with main & jib up seems pretty intelligent to me. I'd have had that main down a lot earlier to reduce the risk of a broach or acidental jibe anyway.

 

[Talulah]

FFS, Day Skipper is a pretty basic qual, suitable for coastal trips in reasonable weather with a competent crew. It is NOT saying you are capable of taking a 40 footer on a severe weather delivery trip thro one of the busiest shipping areas in the World.

Newman123 has also pointed out that they had not sailed for 3 years, The decision not to take the helm when running in those conditions with main & jib up seems pretty intelligent to me. I'd have had that main down a lot earlier to reduce the risk of a broach or acidental jibe anyway.

I think you're responding to a troll.

 

[Kukri]

I may be showing my age - almost all my sailing has been on old fashioned heavy displacement long keel keel boats with only occasional deliveries and such on modern broad stern fin keel ligh weight boats - but the skipper seems to me to have broken Rule One of running downwind in heavy weather, which is SLOW DOWN.

I know only too well how difficult it can be to judge when "making a quick passage with a fair wind" turns into "riding out a gale" and how tempting it can be to delay getting the mainsail off her, but if that had been done, boom secured and the trysail made ready for hoisting early on, with warps towed, things would probably have been very different.

I've made that mistake once and I suppose everyone makes it once because the only way to tell is through experience.

 

[Searush]

I may be showing my age - almost all my sailing has been on old fashioned heavy displacement long keel keel boats with only occasional deliveries and such on modern broad stern fin keel ligh weight boats - but the skipper seems to me to have broken Rule One of running downwind in heavy weather, which is SLOW DOWN.

I know only too well how difficult it can be to judge when "making a quick passage with a fair wind" turns into "riding out a gale" and how tempting it can be to delay getting the mainsail off her, but if that had been done, boom secured and the trysail made ready for hoisting early on, with warps towed, things would probably have been very different.

I've made that mistake once and I suppose everyone makes it once because the only way to tell is through experience.

That's entirely the traditional view for long keeled heavy displacement craft. But it doesn't really apply to narrow deep fin keelers with wide, shallow flat bottomed hulls does it? Bots like these are designed for fast downwind surfing - witness the RTW races.

However, the huge Southern Ocean waves with very long period & miles of sea room are a totally different proposition from the short steep wind over tide conditions in the Channel, with masses of shipping plus sandbanks & lee shores nearby.

 

[Kukri]

That's entirely the traditional view for long keeled heavy displacement craft. But it doesn't really apply to narrow deep fin keelers with wide, shallow flat bottomed hulls does it? Bots like these are designed for fast downwind surfing - witness the RTW races.

However, the huge Southern Ocean waves with very long period & miles of sea room are a totally different proposition from the short steep wind over tide conditions in the Channel, with masses of shipping plus sandbanks & lee shores nearby.

ree

I freely admit that I don't know if it does or if it doesn't.

The traditional wisdom that goes with my sort of traditional boat is that running fast is an invitation to get pooped, because you are never going to run faster than the seas and the boat's passage disturbs them. Clearly this boat was pooped, hence the slightly bent helmsman and wheel. And in any fore and aft rigged boat running in heavy weather with the mainsail set increases the helmsperson's workload no end.

I have found myself running up the Dover Straits in a gale - only an 8 - in an old heavy boat and the effect of slowing down was that we retained steerage way, had no damage and by the time we got to Dover the wind had blown itself out, so we went in through thr re-opened west entrance, went in, anchored off the Club and rowed ashore for a shower.

Certainly I would have slowed down but I will be interested to hear what people who know more about these boats say.

 

[Robin]

I may be showing my age - almost all my sailing has been on old fashioned heavy displacement long keel keel boats with only occasional deliveries and such on modern broad stern fin keel ligh weight boats - but the skipper seems to me to have broken Rule One of running downwind in heavy weather, which is SLOW DOWN.

I know only too well how difficult it can be to judge when "making a quick passage with a fair wind" turns into "riding out a gale" and how tempting it can be to delay getting the mainsail off her, but if that had been done, boom secured and the trysail made ready for hoisting early on, with warps towed, things would probably have been very different.

I've made that mistake once and I suppose everyone makes it once because the only way to tell is through experience.

I don't really want to join in this but as a separate comment, sometimes with a modern boat the traditional remedies in extreme weather of lying a hull, heaving to or running off whilst trailing warps are not the best solution. Even as far back as the 1979 Fastnet a number of boats found a better tactic was to continue actively sailing rather than take the passive 'roll with it' approach, excuse the pun. I'm not saying this was the case in this instance, but sometimes slowing down too much can leave the boat vulnerable to the big breaker hitting from behind, whereas a bit of speed keeps you ahead of it. The problem with this approach is that it takes a skilled helmsman or two to keep this up and in this case one was not available or was busy with other tasks, who knows. Just an observation from the sidelines.

 

[Simondjuk]

I don't really want to join in this but as a separate comment, sometimes with a modern boat the traditional remedies in extreme weather of lying a hull, heaving to or running off whilst trailing warps are not the best solution. Even as far back as the 1979 Fastnet a number of boats found a better tactic was to continue actively sailing rather than take the passive 'roll with it' approach, excuse the pun. I'm not saying this was the case in this instance, but sometimes slowing down too much can leave the boat vulnerable to the big breaker hitting from behind, whereas a bit of speed keeps you ahead of it. The problem with this approach is that it takes a skilled helmsman or two to keep this up and in this case one was not available or was busy with other tasks, who knows. Just an observation from the sidelines.

Agreed entirely.

I've made many passages where a conscious and mutual decision has been made to set off into forecast gales.

Mostly you get the gales you're expecting or a little less. Sometimes you get a little more, which is fine if you're suitably prepared and crewed.

One one occassion, in a 43 foot Dufour, we left Alderney with a SW 8 forecast. After a few hours running in gentle conditions, we got the increasing winds we expected, reduced sail and continued to run down the miles hour after hour at hull speed. As the night wore on the 8 continued to rise, through a 9, until we had a sustained 50 knots of following wind. Going by the book, we were perhaps marginally over canvased, but the boat was behaving impeccably, so there was no need whatsoever to slow down. By way of example of how controllable the boat was, the autopilot could have coped if we'd needed it to but did allow the boat to slew a little. Besides, we were all having a lot of fun storming along through the night, so weren't short of willing hands for the helm.

By morning, the weather had returned to that forecast, a nice 5/6 by daybreak if I remember rightly, just in time to make cooking and eating a full English a pleasure that didn't demand never letting go of your implements, plate, cutlery or mug of tea/breakfast beer.

We had a great run, making the passage in a time you'd never dare to hope for.

What made it OK for us to set off into a forecast gale in an AWB? Well, we knew to assume that if an 8 is forecast you may get a couple of points more, so we were allowing for and comfortable with the possibility of it. We knew we had lots of room to run before we ran out of diversion options if the weather increased beyond the forecast and held up for a while. Most of all though, we had a strong crew, three of the six of us being Yachtmasters and the remaning three known to be strong and capable crew. In total, we had tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles worth of experience between us.

Would we have set out into a forecast 10? No way! You don't sail in them intentionally, and if you allow the potential for the forecast to be conservative, as a prudent person ought, you're suddenly liable to find yourself in hurricane territory.

Would we have gone with a weaker crew? Again, no way. You need redundancy, good helmsmen, and besides most people don't enjoy scaring the daylights out of others.

Can an AWB run fast safely in strong winds? Most certainly, given experienced helms.

 

[Kukri]

Can an AWB run fast safely in strong winds? Most certainly, given experienced helms.

That is the point, of course.

A sufficient supply of non-tired, non-sick, experienced helms.

 

[Simondjuk]

Agreed, non-sick. (I was including that in how I rate a person as experienced and strong crew).

For the tired, there's the whip!

 

[penfold]

Interesting stuff about W33 and Jeanneau SunLegende 41

I take your point, but there is almost as much difference between the SunLegende and the 40.7 as there is between it and the W33; the Peterson design is a serious speed machine but the displacement and hull design make the 40.7 look like a ULDB in comparison(which it is practically).

The important point to note is that each design behaves differently in heavy weather, and in order to be able to make safe passage you need to know what sailplan changes to make and when to make them; this skipper does not appear to have had this knowledge or chose not to act on it. Sailplan changes that would be sensible on the W33 might make the SunLegende or the 40.7 cranky or dangerous, and vice versa; a skipper needs to know the boat he's master of.