Helicopter Rescue off Dover

[Judders]

So they'd identified Brighton, Eastbourne and Dover as ports of refuge. I wouldn't fancy entering any of them in an SW gale (or worse).

Me neither, I hate entering Brighton in any seastate. When we were discussing this in bed last night, SWMBO and I wondered about Newhaven. I've only been there once but IIRC there was more room and shelter and one could go a little way up river to depower.

 

[Boomshanka]

When we were discussing this in bed last night, SWMBO and I wondered about Newhaven. I've only been there once but IIRC there was more room and shelter and one could go a little way up river to depower.

I know what you mean Judders... but there were so many potential double entendres in your post that I can no longer see the screen

 

[GlennG]

So they'd identified Brighton, Eastbourne and Dover as ports of refuge. I wouldn't fancy entering any of them in an SW gale (or worse).

Newhaven is OK, particularly from the SW or W as the long sea wall gives good protection. Brighton's down right dangerous in a blow, just like Dover.

 

[marklucas]

Just a thought

Was this passage registered under CG66?

I know what I would have done.

 

[madmitch]

Personally speaking, I would like to see this guy's commercial license revoked, and the injured crew taking the company to court for negligence.

We could do without cowboys like this in the industry.

Hang on a minute guys, i did a ym-os with this company, yeah as a guy who ran a heavy engineering company with a HSE department at my beck and call I could pick fault but only in a small way, lets face it nobody is perfect! I have 3000 miles with this company in the Atlantic, Channel, Solent and med, never once have i known them to set sail without a full briefing, never once has the crew not been made to pull out all of the safety gear before we set off, i have been made to walk round the boat and check every pin in the standing rigging on numerous occaisions....how many of us do that as a matter of course? I know the guy who owns it and from the people I have met in the solent, he is one of the good guys so lets not put the red dot on the wrong forehead. I have also sailed with this skipper, lets look at where the ptoblem lies, if it does at all. As with all the sailing schools, HL employs free lance skippers to complement its in house skippers, as the bench mark, they can relly on a YM cert, we all know that it is the masters decision alone to go sea, you can argue about "pressure" but what do they get paid? £100 a day? if i told you "here is £100, put your hand in the fire....would you? No! Maybe we should look at the calibre of person being passed as YMI . . .

 

[GlennG]

Shortly after 04:00 Dover Coastguard announced an updated weather forecast that a Force 11 was imminent so an immediate decision was made by the skipper to head towards Dover for shelter. Soon after the wind started reaching Force 8 and the yacht was becoming more difficult to control so the decision was made to drop the headsail and motor towards Dover which at this point was less than 2 hours away.

This puzzles me. When you're being thrown around the *logical* thing to do is continue to sail downwind under a reliable small jib. An engine is really the last thing you want with all the risks of it failing in extreme conditions -- sludge stirred up; overheating if the inlet gets uncovered; prop snagging on something. Given that you'll need the engine in port, you want to do all you can to protect it. Not to mention the fact that a boat is all over the place without a sail to hold her steady (I took a right drubbing going into Dover last summer because I dropped the main before entering!).

So, if this is a 'perverse' decision, it indicates that people aren't thinking straight which is reasonable to assume if 4 of the 7 have their heads in buckets. This is when you really need good leadership and command from the skipper. You don't need a democracy when the chips are down.

 

[Tim Atkinson2]

Hot Liquid

I would like to respond to the ill informed reports on Hot Liquid Sailing posted by those with no more knowledge of what happened than I.

I unlike those that have posted so far, have some experience of Hot liquid sailing, having gained qualifications to allow me to safely sail thousands of miles in many different locations both home and abroad in different capacities from racing through cruising to deliveries. Hot Liquid Run a very safe and professional school with the focus on safety. In my experience their staff and skippers are competent, safe and polite, giving both experienced and amateur sailors valuable tutoring

Like all sea schools Hot Liquid yachts are used all year round safely training hundreds of students to become better sailors. Hot Liquid have enjoyed many years and hundreds of thousands of miles of safe sailing, I know this because I checked before signing up, sadly over the last year they have experienced a few unrelated accidents which I am sure no one takes more seriously than Hot liquid.

I am not prepared to comment on what happened as I was not there anymore than anyone else on this site was, neither am I so smug than to think I won't get caught out one day, however if I am I will rely on the knowledge I have gained from Hot Liquid. This appears not to be something many of the bloggers will need to worry about as judging by the number of blogs they post, clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

 

[madmitch]

A reliable source. Got their HQ in Hamble.

HQ shamrock.....not so reliable then?

 

[masterofnone]

Port of Refuge

Under NO circumstances would I have attempted to enter Brighton or Eastbourne, the only all access port is here in Newhaven. The skippers has F..ked up, we all make mistakes, but then get away with it by resorting to plan B.

 

[mcframe]

Right, you're an engineer, I'm not. Is there a design of boat out there, or a way of designing a boat, where bow cleats could be trusted to this sort of work?

A full on Samson post that was attached to the deck and the keelson perhaps?

Nahh, just loop the tow rope around the keel!

Err, maybe not on /certain/ boats...

I'd have thought a bridle, looped round both bow cleats, both midship cleats, then led to the primary winches would be the best bet.

I was in Concarneau during the Bocastle storm of 2004, and saw a ketch with trebled lines around *both* masts. Incidentally, a FairPrinSeeker† 50-foot flybridge pulled out a bow cleat on the the pontoon.

† Did you see what I did there? ;->

 

[rib]

no surprise on the seekers

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Sorry if I saw a F9 forecast, let alone a F10, I wouldn't even "try".

Why? I've gone out racing in a forecast 9. With a suitable boat and crew, it is sailable. Nothing broke, no accident or near accident. One spectator on a cliff called up the MCA about us but we told them on the radio that we were fine (as we were) so they were OK.

Admittedly I would not dream of going out in anything that strong with just swmbo and myself, but with a strong crew we were fine.

It does depend on the area and shelter available - I would not like to try the entrance to either eastbourne or brighton in that sort of weather - but we had a good refuge if it all got too much.

 

[Twister_Ken]

HQ shamrock.....not so reliable then?

I wonder what organisation is HQ'd in Hamble. Could it be the RYA?

 

[mcframe]

Why? I've gone out racing in a forecast 9. With a suitable boat and crew, it is sailable. Nothing broke, no accident or near accident. One spectator on a cliff called up the MCA about us but we told them on the radio that we were fine (as we were) so they were OK.

Whenever I wave to a LB crew (sometimes in up-to-an-F6 in the Solent!), I'm careful to give 'em a slow raised-right-hand wave, ending with a tap on my head 'cos I'm OK.

I once got buzzed in Hayling Bay (reasonable swell, under minimal sail) and got a nod and thumbs up as they blatted off to find someone else.

 

[Koeketiene]

I would like to respond to the ill informed reports on Hot Liquid Sailing posted by those with no more knowledge of what happened than I.

I unlike those that have posted so far, have some experience of Hot liquid sailing, having gained qualifications to allow me to safely sail thousands of miles in many different locations both home and abroad in different capacities from racing through cruising to deliveries. Hot Liquid Run a very safe and professional school with the focus on safety. In my experience their staff and skippers are competent, safe and polite, giving both experienced and amateur sailors valuable tutoring

Like all sea schools Hot Liquid yachts are used all year round safely training hundreds of students to become better sailors. Hot Liquid have enjoyed many years and hundreds of thousands of miles of safe sailing, I know this because I checked before signing up, sadly over the last year they have experienced a few unrelated accidents which I am sure no one takes more seriously than Hot liquid.

I am not prepared to comment on what happened as I was not there anymore than anyone else on this site was, neither am I so smug than to think I won't get caught out one day, however if I am I will rely on the knowledge I have gained from Hot Liquid. This appears not to be something many of the bloggers will need to worry about as judging by the number of blogs they post, clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

Very eloquent first post: congrats.
Yet, something seems to be lacking. Know what it is yet? 'Credibility'

 

[rib]

hes a hot one

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I was on the boat as crew and I am astounded by all the inaccuracies in Hotliquid's statement. Other than the skipper I was the most experienced with dayskipper certification but I made it clear to the skipper that I hard scarcely sailed in the last 3 years. The crew member who was injured on the helm passed day skipper 3 weeks ago and the others were competant crew with little experience.
The timings are all wrong and most of us were too ill to function by midnight. I could go on and on, but will now give a full account to the MAIB.

Well Mr newman123 I think you owe it to all sailors who wish to learn from this to put your MAIB report into the public domain on this forum and elsewhere at the same time that you send it to MAIB.
Hopefully to encourage other skippers and owners to become more responsible and to perhaps learn from what is preached on all RYA courses that I know of.

Whatever one can say about RYA, to my knowledge the course instructors have never encouraged anyone to gamble or take risks such as those reported in this incident.
Why should this skipper think differently?

Mr Hotliquid needs to become a little more humble methinks. How can he defend the stupidity of the whole escapade.
Reconsider and eat humble pie sir, otherwise your company could become another 'Rocnagate'.

 

[Tintin]

Very eloquent first post: congrats.
Yet, something seems to be lacking. Know what it is yet? 'Credibility'

Clearly a personal fan of Crock Liquid, or whatever they are called - clicky

Makes me wonder of the call has gone out to their friends to help repair their image. The problem for Mr Atkinson is that he wasn't there, but others were and they have not been so complementary about Hot Liquid and the skipper, either on this forum or on local TV.

BTW the online clear up continues. A tweet to sailingboy55 that commented on the rescue has now gone too. Quick, hide the evidence Mr Manning...

 

[GlennG]

Ask Tricky Dicky (Nixon) and he'll tell you that the cover up is far worse than the crime.

The great thing about these forums is that we ALL learn from mistakes. Just in this very forum, I've learned not to ignore all the weather advice and go for a long journey when it's forecasting 10's (that's 'cos I know that weather forecasting is an art which frequently underestimates wind and gets timing wrong).

Sorry, IMHO it was reckless stupidity that was exacerbated by the actions of the skipper en-route. As a commercial venture it's not just stupid, it's a failure in a duty of care by the company and it's representatives (e.g. the skipper).


Now go away and think about Rocna. Had they have just sorted out the problem, they'd still be in business. Lying (or spin as it's often called) just antagonised people.

 

[HinewaisMan]

<snip>
I am not prepared to comment on what happened as I was not there anymore than anyone else on this site was, neither am I so smug than to think I won't get caught out one day, however if I am I will rely on the knowledge I have gained from Hot Liquid. This appears not to be something many of the bloggers will need to worry about as judging by the number of blogs they post, clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

Gosh! Didn’t realise that I have spent the last five years sailing our ketch from Australia to the UK while sitting in an armchair. And, like Marsupial, we also have internet on board.

Having said that, I would agree to some extent with Mr Atkinson in so far as we don’t know the full facts and that Hot Liquid could be undergoing an unfair trial by internet.

However, from a personal point of view, I would never ever consider risking the life of my crew, aka my wife, my life nor our boat, which is built for serious blue water cruising, by setting out when forecasts which had been readily available for days were talking about strong wind, possibly F10 conditions.

It was interesting to see a Swan 65, a yacht built a tad more strongly than a 40.7, which was due to head off from here in Ipswich en-route for London on Monday still sitting here Wednesday morning.