Helicopter Rescue off Dover

[Babylon]

...clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

I use the sofa - its more weatherly!

 

[Boomshanka]

I unlike those that have posted so far, have some experience of Hot liquid sailing, having gained qualifications to allow me to safely sail thousands of miles in many different locations both home and abroad in different capacities from racing through cruising to deliveries.

Not quite true... there are a number of folk who have posted, myself included, that have sailed with Hot Liquid

 

[newman123]

It was dark..

Why? I've gone out racing in a forecast 9. With a suitable boat and crew, it is sailable. Nothing broke, no accident or near accident. One spectator on a cliff called up the MCA about us but we told them on the radio that we were fine (as we were) so they were OK.

Admittedly I would not dream of going out in anything that strong with just swmbo and myself, but with a strong crew we were fine.

It does depend on the area and shelter available - I would not like to try the entrance to either eastbourne or brighton in that sort of weather - but we had a good refuge if it all got too much.

The worst weather was before it got light. The issue was the combination of the sea state and the wind and visibility was difficult due to the wave heights. We also had only two crew functioning after about midnight and at about 4 am had to cut the head sail away with a knife. All of this was before we called the Coastguard. The videoed conditions were a picnic compared to what we had been experiencing.

 

[Judders]

Is this the same Mr Atkinson of Matrix and Phoenix fame?

If so then I would trust his judgement on safety matters, probably more than my own.

 

[rotrax]

Well Mr newman123 I think you owe it to all sailors who wish to learn from this to put your MAIB report into the public domain on this forum and elsewhere at the same time that you send it to MAIB.
Hopefully to encourages other skippers and owners to become more responsible and to perhaps learn from what is preached on all RYA courses that I know of.

Whatever one can say about RYA, to my knowledge the course instructors have never encouraged anyone to gamble or take risks such as those reported in this incident.
Why should this skipper think differently?

Mr Hotliquid needs to become a little more humble methinks. How can he defend the stupidity of the whole escapade.
Reconsider and eat humble pie sir, otherwise your company could become another 'Rocnagate'.

I think we must stop RYA bashing here. The boat was not on an approved RYA training course,nor was it during the previous two incidents. The RYA can only take action if problems happen under the circumstances of approved training I presume.

 

[marklucas]

I think we must stop RYA bashing here. The boat was not on an approved RYA training course,nor was it during the previous two incidents. The RYA can only take action if problems happen under the circumstances of approved training I presume.

You are correct about the RYA (at least in terms of direct action) - but the MCA can and if a judge so determines, put you in jail.

 

[A1Sailor]

I would like to respond to the ill informed reports on Hot Liquid Sailing posted by those with no more knowledge of what happened than I.

...judging by the number of blogs they post, clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

I don't go to sea when a Force 8-10 is forecast. I'm happy to admit that in that situation, I'd return to my armchair. IMHO it is the sound & sensible thing to do. It is called Seamanship.

 

[rotrax]

You are correct about the RYA (at least in terms of direct action) - but the MCA can and if a judge so determines, put you in jail.

Quite right too!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I think we must stop RYA bashing here. The boat was not on an approved RYA training course,nor was it during the previous two incidents. The RYA can only take action if problems happen under the circumstances of approved training I presume.

There is an obligation on the establishment to conduct non RYA activities such that the RYA are not compromised or brought into disrepute. I believe its in the terms of the recognition to be an RYA training centre.

 

[Tobebythesea]

I would like to respond to the ill informed reports on Hot Liquid Sailing posted by those with no more knowledge of what happened than I.

I unlike those that have posted so far, have some experience of Hot liquid sailing, having gained qualifications to allow me to safely sail thousands of miles in many different locations both home and abroad in different capacities from racing through cruising to deliveries. Hot Liquid Run a very safe and professional school with the focus on safety. In my experience their staff and skippers are competent, safe and polite, giving both experienced and amateur sailors valuable tutoring

Like all sea schools Hot Liquid yachts are used all year round safely training hundreds of students to become better sailors. Hot Liquid have enjoyed many years and hundreds of thousands of miles of safe sailing, I know this because I checked before signing up, sadly over the last year they have experienced a few unrelated accidents which I am sure no one takes more seriously than Hot liquid.

I am not prepared to comment on what happened as I was not there anymore than anyone else on this site was, neither am I so smug than to think I won't get caught out one day, however if I am I will rely on the knowledge I have gained from Hot Liquid. This appears not to be something many of the bloggers will need to worry about as judging by the number of blogs they post, clearly they do most of their sailing from their armchair.

I think it's too easy to judge a book by it's cover. You can't condemn an organisation by one individual - there are countless published examples of this across all industries. The 'facts' that have been recounted here several times show that an individual's judgement has created a situation that was avoidable; that there is no subsititute for good preparation, experience, and above all pragmatism for the situation which includes equipment, crew and conditions; and that it's always much easier to judge when you're not in that situation.

I have sailed thousands and thousands of miles in all conditions and a variety of vessels. I try to make good judgement calls and live by the "there by the grace of God go I" when I hear of an unfortunate indicent, such as a racing skipper I knew who died last year in a Fastent qualifier. None of us are perfect.

Through sailing on the south coast I know Hot Liquid, Jason Manning and some of their skippers personally. They're a professional outfit and take their duty of care towards clients very seriously, and I'm sure the vast majority of people they have had through their courses and mile building trips would testify to this. I don't believe this incident came down to commercial pressures. The vessel (a 40.7) is more than capable of the conditions - with the right crew. The crew may not have been experienced in these conditions, and it's clear that the wind whipped up incredibly quickly (broadly forecasted as such). It's all about the judgement by an individual, one that we all make every day in so many different situations. Yes, it appears this call was the wrong one, especially as there was the safety and wellbeing of others involved, not only on the boat in question but also of the rescue services.

I admire those of you that have never made a poor judgement call - or perhaps haven't had to make one in a critical situation. I'm not excusing what has happened and am obviously pleased no one was seriously injured. The MAIB report should be the grounds for debate once published. But then, I know that for many people it's just too easy to pick a target and take a punt at it. Not my style - this is my first post on this forum having followed it occasionally over the years enjoying various threads.

I guess I've just put my self on the spot for criticsm and banter - such is life!!

 

[A1Sailor]

I don't go to sea when a Force 8-10 is forecast. I'm happy to admit that in that situation, I'd return to my armchair. IMHO it is the sound & sensible thing to do. It is called Seamanship.

However, since I have only been sailing for 48 years and only have an RYA/DoT Coastal Skipper's ticket awarded after being examined on the Solent in 1988 by the RYA's then Cruising Secretary, Robin Sjoberg, I am not as well qualified as others.
I don't have Yachtmaster with Commercial Endorsement; unlike Charlie. Right Charlie?

 

[bigwow]

I don't go to sea when a Force 8-10 is forecast. I'm happy to admit that in that situation, I'd return to my armchair. IMHO it is the sound & sensible thing to do. It is called Seamanship.

+1

 

[Blueboatman]

Thank you to Newman123 for coming on here and filling in various facts.

I am just glad that you all made it out of there before the situation on board deteriorated further.
If the lifeboat hadn't come along and the Goodwins were fast approaching, then what?
Or to copy a YachtingMonthly Seamanship Column: What now skipper?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I think we must stop RYA bashing here. The boat was not on an approved RYA training course,nor was it during the previous two incidents. The RYA can only take action if problems happen under the circumstances of approved training I presume.

Hi Rotrax, definatly no RYA bashing intended.
Perhaps you have interpreted my posting incorrectly or it is reading to say other than that intended.
My intention was to praise most that is taught by the RYA instructors in terms of safety.

Read my post again and see what you think.
..................................................................................................................................................................
"Whatever one can say about RYA, to my knowledge the course instructors have never encouraged anyone to gamble or take risks such as those reported in this incident.
Why should this skipper think differently?"
.................................................................................................................................................................

S

 

[wizard]

Under NO circumstances would I have attempted to enter Brighton or Eastbourne, the only all access port is here in Newhaven. The skippers has F..ked up, we all make mistakes, but then get away with it by resorting to plan B.

But even Newhaven is dangerous in those conditions. I was moored there in 2004/5 and came back several times with a SW F6/7 up the chuff and timing is everything when you turn in (giving the lighthouse a wide berth) past the entrance. More than once I was almost swept past the entrance by the long rollers. I would not contemplate it in the winds experienced by that crew.

 

[Kukri]

Just thinking for a moment - I myself would not like to enter any of the ports en route - certainly not Brighton, not keen on Dover or Newhaven either, so what would the best option be?

If I found myself in this situation, I think I would run up the coast under bare poles but with storm headsail and reefed trysail ready to set, trailing warps, keeping well off the headlands.

I would need to set the trysail to do what comes next.

Dungeness East Road is a possibility, if you can make up close under the land. depends on wind direction and how she handles under trysail and if you have daylight.

If that is ruled out, then the critical bit will be turning the corner at Dover, avoiding the backwash off the breakeaters, and being able to make up into the Downs. If you cannot do that, it's a lifeboat job.

Thoughts?

 

[prv]

Hi Rotrax, definatly no RYA bashing intended.
Perhaps you have interpreted my posting incorrectly or it is reading to say other than that intended.

It certainly reads rather confusingly to me. You seem to be giving one of the "inexperienced" paying crew a telling-off, and I can't understand why.

Pete

 

[jimi]

Just thinking for a moment - I myself would not like to enter any of the ports en route - certainly not Brighton, not keen on Dover or Newhaven either, so what would the best option be?

If I found myself in this situation, I think I would run up the coast under bare poles but with storm headsail and reefed trysail ready to set, trailing warps, keeping well off the headlands.

I would need to set the trysail to do what comes next.

Dungeness East Road is a possibility, if you can make up close under the land. depends on wind direction and how she handles under trysail and if you have daylight.

If that is ruled out, then the critical bit will be turning the corner at Dover, avoiding the backwash off the breakeaters, and being able to make up into the Downs. If you cannot do that, it's a lifeboat job.

Thoughts?

and therein lies the nub of the issue i.e. there was no possible Plan B if the weather came through quicker and/or nastier than forecast.

 

[Kukri]

The trick is not to be in a hurry.

Run as slow as you can, and the chances are very good that things will have settled down before you get to the narrow neck of the funnel, so to speak, and have to think about the traffic, the Goodwins, etc. Less wear and tear on crew, too. Worked for me - admittedly in an 8 in an old heavy boat, which is not the same as a modern sled in a 10, but it's what I'd do again.

 

[PhillM]

Thanks to Hot Liquid Training ....

As I said in earlier posts, I was not impressed with the decision to take the trip to the LBS with a forecast F10. I am very pleased to hear that nobody got killed or sustained any life threatening injuries. I am sad that the crew, skipper I believe his daughter had a terrifying experience.

Thinking about the reports and thread posts, I think I can take a few lessons from it. Please bear in mind that I still consider myself very much a novice, so most of what follows may be obvious to everyone else.

1) I will NOT go to sea in my own boat if the forecast has or has recently had any F6 or above in it. F4 gusting 5 is the max I will even think about. You might think of me as a wimp and perhaps time and experience will increase this limit, but for now, that’s my personal limit and there is nothing that can be said or done to talk me into going out in anything more.

2) On two out of the three RYA courses I took (before owning my own boat), we had winds larger than I would be personally comfortable sailing in. Basically I had no option other than to trust the skipper. One was F7 gusting F8 – and we reached home from Bucklers Hard to Gosport wind with tide. The other was F8 cyclonic then reducing F6. After the wind had reduced to F7 we broad reached home from Cowes to Gosport. I had no worries about the conditions BUT that was because I simply didn’t know better and after all I was on an RYA course – so trusted the skipper. However, on both courses others felt very sea sick and I think one gave up sailing completely becaus of it.

3) I received an email offer for the HL trip in question. I was tempted because I could have been dling the same trip in June on my own boat. If I had paid for the trip and was sitting onboard in the cabin, with all the others, discussing the trip with a skipper, who I knew was RYA Yachtmaster qualified, would I have REALLY said NO I’m not going? Personally, I really don’t know if I would have had the bottle to say no and I would have felt that I was letting the side down if I did. Lets call it peer presure.

I DO understand why the lady with the D/S quail and her own boat stayed on board. Now however, I have the advantage of thinking about it. In future, I will set out the conditions that I am personally happy with, at the time I book a trip on somone elss's boat. If the skipper says go and I don’t agree with his / her assessment of the conditions, I won’t be going.

4) I have read Heavy Weather sailing, and similar. I had not really appreciated what sort of sea room is needed in an emergency. Nor had I realised how terrifying a Lee Shore could be.

5) It has really brought home that all the emergency equipment in the world doesn’t guarantee that you get out alive, if you make stupid decisions and go into dangerous winds and seas. "F11 lets get into the life raft bacause we are sinking" err do I really expect to survive in a rubber ring when my solid yacht is sunk because I had too much sail up and got dismasted, then holed by my mast?

6) Looking at Charts, I had not realised how small the Dover end of the Channel is. Reading the posts about TTS, Goodwin Sands etc, I can see what is meant.

7) When I thought of a Port of Refuge, I was not taking into consideration having to approach a port on a lee shore, or concrete harbour wall ... in rough seas and cross winds. I know that Chichester has a bar and can be dangerous, but I would have not seen any reason not to use Newhaven or Dover. Nothing in my Pilot books sugest otherwise (I think). I might even have gone for Ramsgate but looking at the chart again I see how small the channel through the Goodwin sands is. Without the lifeboat and local knowledge, I can see just how dangerous that would be.

8) As I have never suffered sea sickness, I have no idea how it feels and how I would cope if I did suffer it. As a family sailor (usually me and one of my teenage sons) I am really the only person who can handle the boat. If I were out of action, I am not sure how the kids would do. Food for thought here...

So, Hot Liquid Sailing has provided a real life case study and one that I think I will remember for some time to come. You never know, what I have learned might just stop me ending up in the same situation. Perhaps this and similar cases should be written up and be included in RYA training?