Helicopter Rescue off Dover

[mcframe]

Would we have gone with a weaker crew? Again, no way. You need redundancy, good helmsmen, and besides most people don't enjoy scaring the daylights out of others.

Err, "redundancy" is once of the lessons from Nelson's (I was going to say Napoleonic, but..) navy times - every gun crew doubled up so you /can/ fire P&S at the same time, but if you need all hands for a single broadside, you're d@mn sure it *will* happen.

 

[Simondjuk]

I know this was SE not W but it bears reading
http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/media_centre/pressrelease_detail?articleid=103507

Thanks for that, jimi, I'd not seen it.

Everyone who has not done so already should read it. It is a perfect example of why running for cover at an inappropriate port can be the most dangerous thing to do in bad weather.

 

[A1Sailor]

What a cracking post Phill. Maybe if this was the opening post then some of the hysteria on this forum would not have happened.

The way you have gone through the various points shows to me you are much more than a novice and/or have had some good instruction.

Similar cases (and now this one for the future) are used by most schools and instructors every single day in teaching and for that matter anyone else that is maybe just going out for a little sail on their own or with their nearest and dearest.

+1 for Phil's post - no 442 in the thread.
He makes lots of good constructive comments. Had the passengers (oops - crew!) decided not to get on Liquid Vortex, or disembark before she set sail, would they have got a full refund? I suspect not...

When debriefing, one always asks:
1. What went well?
2. What went less well?
3. What might be done differently in the future? Which was a point well made by Phil.

In this case the MAIB are doing the debrief...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

hmmm.. have you seen the depths in the approaches to Eastbourne? I rather suspect that you'd be bouncing off the sand in the troughs and knocked down by breaking waves in a F10


I know this was SE not W but it bears reading
http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/media_centre/pressrelease_detail?articleid=103507

..... The lifeboat and its equipment performed satisfactorily throughout the service. .....

A ripping read and certainly makes one think! What skill shown by the RNLI Crew and such understatement demonstrates the quiet confidence that the RNLI have in their abilities; it can only be so for the conditions they have to experience. An amazing service, indeed.

 

[Judders]

One one occassion, in a 43 foot Dufour, we left Alderney with a SW 8 forecast.

The other important difference is that you were heading in to a 60 mile wide expanse of deep water, not a narrow shallow strait with sandbanks shifting all over the place.

 

[wizard]

Eastbourne? Well sheltered from the west.

Apart from the incredibly small entrance/difficulty in seeing the entrance until you are really close and in the weather conditions they were in. A brave man to do that towards shallow water

 

[westernman]

FFS, Day Skipper is a pretty basic qual, suitable for coastal trips in reasonable weather with a competent crew. It is NOT saying you are capable of taking a 40 footer on a severe weather delivery trip thro one of the busiest shipping areas in the World.

Newman123 has also pointed out that they had not sailed for 3 years, The decision not to take the helm when running in those conditions with main & jib up seems pretty intelligent to me. I'd have had that main down a lot earlier to reduce the risk of a broach or acidental jibe anyway.

+1.

In actual fact I don't ever run downwind with the main up anyway, to avoid any chance of an accidental jibe.

In those conditions he should have just had the storm jib up if heading downwind.

If the winds are light, I will probably have passengers moving around the deck and I would not want to take the risk of sweeping them into the water, moderate winds or more, jibing onto a runner risks damage. In any case the boat is faster and more comfortable if not going dead downwind.

I can well understand the DS not wanting to take the helm. I would not want to take the helm under those conditions either, and by the sounds of it, too much main up, dead downwind, heavy confused seas, it would take some one who knows the boat well to be able to cope. Also it sounds like it is out of the capabilities of the autopilot as well.

 

[reginaldon]

In actual fact I don't ever run downwind with the main up anyway, to avoid any chance of an accidental jibe.
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Never? not goosewinged with a preventer?


Still very much a tyro, but have done this in rapidly increasing winds from dead calm as a front came up, in a dinghy in the same area - maybe we were just lucky, but an exhilerating sail and shelter at Folkestone. We were leaving quite a wake.

Not relevant to the present subject matter I know, and as we started our return sail, the sea was nearly flat. In that case we needed to return as quickly as possible, just questioning the principle.

 

[Koeketiene]

In actual fact I don't ever run downwind with the main up anyway, to avoid any chance of an accidental jibe.
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Never? not goosewinged with a preventer?

Only when the seastate is slight.
As soon as it gets lumpy I take the main down.
Dead downwind with lumpy seas, the boats arse is all over the place. Hand helming alleviates some of the effects, but on AP...
And sure, the preventer does it's thing; but when you see the boom vibrating you know it's bad news for the gooseneck.

 

[Blueboatman]

Not sure how many have had the pleasure of a trisail .

It's beauty to me is that it is very manageable, there is no boom to break, it puts the driving force where it should be, in the middle of the boat, you can see underneath it etc etc. And it will work on a reach or indeed slightly to weather-all quite useful ( to me) when you are dodging sandbanks and thinking about haven entrances.

I would have had that sail up at f7. With or without the no3. The crew would find the motion less vomit inducing and prob easier to steer, the boat speed would still be acceptable, and it would all be good-ney Excellent- sail handling practise on what is at all times a school training boat.
But of course once it was dark and blowing and wild and scary and nauseous, I 'guess' that option was out the window. Missed a 'sail conservatively at all times' trick there, IMO.

 

[Kukri]

Not sure how many have had the pleasure of a trisail .

It's beauty to me is that it is very manageable, there is no boom to break, it puts the driving force where it should be, in the middle of the boat, you can see underneath it etc etc. And it will work on a reach or indeed slightly to weather-all quite useful ( to me) when you are dodging sandbanks and thinking about haven entrances.

I would have had that sail up at f7. With or without the no3. The crew would find the motion less vomit inducing and prob easier to steer, the boat speed would still be acceptable, and it would all be good-ney Excellent- practise on what is at all times a school training boat.

Exactly.

However, I suspect that what may have happened is that the boat was allowed to run on too long, to the point where the skipper did not fancy bringing her to the wind to drop the main and set the trysail, and he may not have had crew up to the task, by that time.

This happens more often than people care to admit.

Inexperienced people on AWBs tell themsleves that "this is what this sort of boat is meant to do" , with images of RTW racers in their minds, but they don't have RTW crews, RTW searoom or - most important and often overlooked - RTW gear - they have the cheap versions. DAMHIKT.

From that point the boat is basically out of control and the accident is going to happen.

 

[Judders]

"this is what this sort of boat is meant to do" , with images of RTW racers in their minds, but they don't have RTW crews, RTW searoom or - most important and often overlooked - RTW gear - they have the cheap versions. DAMHIKT.

That is the delusion isn't it. What these boats are menat to do is ponse around in an F3 and look good in a marina. The 40.7 is a particulalrly inept boat that's success is down to Benneteau's marketing and giving plenty away at cost to good racers and has nothing to do with it's sailing qualities. It's bizare when other builders have proven that perfectly good boats can be built for the same money but there it is.

 

[jimi]

That is the delusion isn't it. What these boats are menat to do is ponse around in an F3 and look good in a marina. The 40.7 is a particulalrly inept boat that's success is down to Benneteau's marketing and giving plenty away at cost to good racers and has nothing to do with it's sailing qualities. It's bizare when other builders have proven that perfectly good boats can be built for the same money but there it is.

I suspect you are displaying your prejudices here. In this case it was crew weakness that was the issue, not the boat.

 

[westernman]

In actual fact I don't ever run downwind with the main up anyway, to avoid any chance of an accidental jibe.
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Never? not goosewinged with a preventer?

Almost never with the main up. The autopilot can't quite manage without gybing occasionally (no problem it light to medium airs on my boat if the runners are not rigged). The human on the helm needs to pay attention the whole time to avoid a gybe. If the weather is light to medium - I have passengers lolling around on the decks - hitting them on the head is not on. If the weather is heavier, I will have the runners rigged, so an uncontrolled gybe could be dangerous for the boat.

Much easier, also the boat motion is more comfortable and it is also faster just to head up a few degrees.

 

[westernman]

I suspect you are displaying your prejudices here. In this case it was crew weakness that was the issue, not the boat.

+1.

The boat looked after itself very well once the sails were down.
Looks like the crew panicked and wanted to get out of there quickly.....

 

[Judders]

I suspect you are displaying your prejudices here. In this case it was crew weakness that was the issue, not the boat.

Oh absolutely, I've said elsewhere in the thread that it wouldnt have mattered what boat they were on and I stand by that.

 

[Judders]

+1.

The boat looked after itself very well once the sails were down.
Looks like the crew panicked and wanted to get out of there quickly.....

The boat looked after itself but the motion of modern flat bottomed boats in seas like that are a major contributor to wear on the crew. I dont think that a better boat would have fared any better in this isntance because the crew would have been worn down whatever the boat. My point is that people are deluded about what modern boats can do.

 

[reginaldon]

Almost never with the main up. The autopilot can't quite manage without gybing occasionally (no problem it light to medium airs on my boat if the runners are not rigged). The human on the helm needs to pay attention the whole time to avoid a gybe. If the weather is light to medium - I have passengers lolling around on the decks - hitting them on the head is not on. If the weather is heavier, I will have the runners rigged, so an uncontrolled gybe could be dangerous for the boat.

Much easier, also the boat motion is more comfortable and it is also faster just to head up a few degrees.

Of course we were tiller steering and and also sat well down in the stern sheets altho' the wind was increasing, the sea was only moderate and we needed to get to shelter pdq.
Incidentally H L could have sheltered behind the long stone pier at Folkestone, much easier than Dover's Western entrance

 

[aslabend]

Almost never with the main up. The autopilot can't quite manage without gybing occasionally (no problem it light to medium airs on my boat if the runners are not rigged). The human on the helm needs to pay attention the whole time to avoid a gybe. If the weather is light to medium - I have passengers lolling around on the decks - hitting them on the head is not on. If the weather is heavier, I will have the runners rigged, so an uncontrolled gybe could be dangerous for the boat.

Much easier, also the boat motion is more comfortable and it is also faster just to head up a few degrees.

Poling out the headsail one side and putting a preventer on a reduced main to pull it out the other and then running wing on wing directly down wind is a good way to keep the boat balanced and prevent booms on head adventures (Pole the headsail out to windward and the boom almost never gybes). My st1000+ tillerpilot copes fine up to f6 like that. Means a lot of ropes coming back to the cockpit but it's a doddle once you're set.

 

[Blueboatman]

Re michaelchapman.

Agreed, the boat looked fine chugging into the wind in a sheltered bay.

In fact it amazes me how fast modern boats will motor to windward up to a point.


Not sure I would have trusted motor alone though from there to Ramsgate. Esp once the wheel had been damaged once. Only a matter of time for a second 'once in a blue moon' wave to sweep aboard. Again.

So there I see the dilemma with this boat. Sail it fast and furious with a big strong crew and the helm wont be wave damaged.

As a comparison-and it is no more than that-I have one of Holman and Pyes later creations, a R36 which whilst having a deep keel, it is very much cut away at the front, with raked transom, so not a true longkeeler I would say.
Windiest sailing this summer involved double reefed main, broad reaching as if on rails. I then decided to put up the reefed staysail too ( I have it arranged to be both hoisted and downhauled down from the cockpit, v easy with the spinnaker pole guy), and this was faster certainly but perhaps too fast, so down it came.
Then I rounded up and popped the third reef in the main,( a first ever), definitely under canvassed so back to two reefs and a brilliant exhiliarating sail. With soup and lots of tea and a dry, warm crew(me).
And the point? If the boat and crew aren't set up to be able to make these adjustments,when necessary, maybe they need to rethink their entire operation.