Helicopter Rescue off Dover

PeterR

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The boat looked after itself but the motion of modern flat bottomed boats in seas like that are a major contributor to wear on the crew. I dont think that a better boat would have fared any better in this isntance because the crew would have been worn down whatever the boat. My point is that people are deluded about what modern boats can do.

Upwind you may have a point in terms of comfort but downwind with the correct sail plan they are usually fine. Three years ago I crossed from Calais to Ramsgate in my Dufour 34 in winds around 42 knots due west - not forecast. We had a very deep third reef in and about 3 rolls in a number 3 genoa. The waves were much bigger than on the rescue video - but videos always make it look calmer than it felt at the time. After crossing the shipping lanes on a beam reach I chose not to try and fetch up above the Goodwins against wind and tide but bore away around the outside. You could not mistake them, it was a cauldron of white water making an incredible roaring noise. We surfed past under total control at about 13 knots and then headed up in the lee of the Goodwins, in fairly flat water, for Ramsgate.

In 2010 we were again caught out crossing from the Scillies to Milford Haven with 42 miles to go. We ended up on a dead run in winds around 45 knots with just one reef in, pitch black and visibility as far as the mast. I won't go into the reasons why. This was too much sail but I judged that getting the main down would have meant rounding up and almost certainly causing sail damage. In those circumstances speed is your friend. Most of the time we were surfing at 15 to 16 knots which kept the apparent wind down to around 30 knots. Occasionally as we fell into a trough and lost speed the apparent wind rose and we would begin to round up a little but then the jib would fill and bring the head back we would lift to the next wave and be off on the sleigh ride again. We were heading for a safe all weather harbour and the coastguard kept on saying there was only a F6 inshore so we stuck with it. The motion was not unpleasant; in fact it was positively exhilarating, tinged only with worry about possible gear failure or an inadvertent gybe. If we had got the third reef in before the wind started to sound like a banshee I would have been thoroughly enjoying it. In the end we did those 40 miles in well under 4 hours averaging over 12 knots for the middle two of those 4 hours and a max speed of 17 knots. There was no boat damage at all.

This is typical for a modern cruiser racer and although I haven’t sailed a First 40.7 I would expect it behave much the same just faster. This video shows an X34 in 43 knots. It looks as though he has damaged his main and is just using a jib but the boat is fine. I grant if they genuinely had 50 knots that is another step up the ratchet but there seems to be some dispute as to when it increased to that strength.



Clearly the skipper of Hot Liquid was mad not to pull into a safe haven when he had the chance and he grossly overestimated the capacity of his crew but it will be interesting to find out exactly why the boat was in trouble and why the jib was cut away. It will also be interesting to find out which ports would have been safe to enter. Personnally, I would not consider Brighton in those conditions, I’m not sure about Eastbourne or Newhaven. The Western entrance to Dover would have been a nightmare. The Eastern entrance was probably OK but you would need an engine to take you straight into 50knots plus the tide which I doubt mine would do. Ramsgate. would have been fine once in the shelter of the Goodwins. I have been there in 60 knot westerlies (safely tied up) and the entrance looked perfectly feasible.
 

chanelyacht

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I don't know if there is now a more official feed of data from Coastguard antennas or whatever, but if not then the reason for the gap is as simple as the fact that there is no altruistic radio geek living nearby.Pete

Data from our AIS network is not shared elsewhere.

AIS, being basically a VHF databurst, is not immune to the problems any radio transmission can have though, and we do every now and then "lose" targets only for them to reappear later.
 

chewi

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haydude

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Waiting for someone to come along who has sailed/raced a 40.7 in storm winds downwind and what their opinion is as to boats actual behaviour, what sails they flew,etc.

I sailed a 40.7 for five days. It is a very light and tender boat that heels and bobs a lot. The main required one reef already with the low end of a F4 close hauled.

Not many points to brace, difficult to point feet in the very open cockpit. The design of the cockpit sole behind the helm was particularly bad because the helmsman feet tended to get stuck in the draining channels.

However this doesn't in any way reduce the skipper's responsibility in the decision to take to the sea that I condemn totally. I believe that in such circumstances the RYA should review and consider to withdraw his qualifications.
 
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Robin

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I sailed a 40.7 for five days. It is a very light and tender boat that heels and bobs a lot. The main required one reef already with the low end of a F4 close hauled.
Not many points to brace, difficult to point feet in the very open cockpit. The design of the cockpit sole behind the helm was particularly bad because the helmsman feet tended to get stuck in the draining channels.

However this doesn't in any way reduce the skipper's responsibility in the decision to take to the sea that I condemn totally. I believe that in such circumstances the RYA should review and consider to withdraw his qualifications.

As will most performance boats. If it doesn't need a reef before then it is under canvassed and a motorboat in light winds. These types of boat are fast upwind and the apparent wind of going upwind at 7kts or more as well much closer to the wind than cruisy boats do will make a first reef in a F3 (true wind) quite normal. Half the boats in use today with their in mast mains start out with the first reef in place effectively anyway. Nothing wrong with having the sail power as long as it can be reefed down, just that the reefing is done at different, earlier times.
 

Twister_Ken

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Sometime I disagree with Robin. This time I do so in light of my newly acquired knowledge of big, bendy fractional rigs. If you're reefing in an F3, it's because you haven't pulled the kicker and the backstay on hard enough. With enough purchase, a bendy mast, and a sail cut to match, there's a whole load of flattening of the main that can be done (equals depowering) before a reef needs to be considered.
 

RobbieW

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Sometime I disagree with Robin. This time I do so in light of my newly acquired knowledge of big, bendy fractional rigs. If you're reefing in an F3, it's because you haven't pulled the kicker and the backstay on hard enough. With enough purchase, a bendy mast, and a sail cut to match, there's a whole load of flattening of the main that can be done (equals depowering) before a reef needs to be considered.

Gosh TK, you're sounding just like a hardened racer :) (btw, sometimes you also need to ease the main down the track as far as it'll go then ease out the sheet till your only using the headsail)
 

Robin

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Sometime I disagree with Robin. This time I do so in light of my newly acquired knowledge of big, bendy fractional rigs. If you're reefing in an F3, it's because you haven't pulled the kicker and the backstay on hard enough. With enough purchase, a bendy mast, and a sail cut to match, there's a whole load of flattening of the main that can be done (equals depowering) before a reef needs to be considered.

No disagreement at all as I'm used to masthead rigs! Also my experience is mostly from an era where there were big headsails. Our last boat had around 300sqft of main and 685sqft of genoa so we would roll a bit of that away first then put the first reef in the main at around 14/15kts apparent, we could carry more but go slower if we did. However if we were trying really hard on a gusty day and the windward leg was not too long I might get out of the cockpit and put the flattener reef in and cunningham on, then drop the traveller a tad more. SWMBO mind you was wise to these moves and since we sailed as an unmatched pair I would obey and put the first reef in only to prove most times that she was right and we went faster not slower!
 

Twister_Ken

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Indeed. And I was pointing out that this Beneteau bobs a lot and the cockpit must have been like a washing machine in a F10.

I suspect the same would be true of almost any 40 footer running downwind in those conditions. Granted a big cockpit gives you more room to be thrown around but you can mitigate that a bit by keeping just a helmsman and another in the cockpit, and having both of them hooked on with short tethers.
 

PeterR

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Sometime I disagree with Robin. This time I do so in light of my newly acquired knowledge of big, bendy fractional rigs. If you're reefing in an F3, it's because you haven't pulled the kicker and the backstay on hard enough. With enough purchase, a bendy mast, and a sail cut to match, there's a whole load of flattening of the main that can be done (equals depowering) before a reef needs to be considered.

Your depowering technique is of course spot on but if I am correct you sail an Arcona 340 with a non-overlapping headsail. Nothing wrong with that - very seaman like for cruising and I frequently do the same - but your boat was designed for a 41 Sq m No 1 overlapping genoa not a 29 Sq m No 3. With the big genoa up at the top end of a force 3 with 7 knots added boat speed you would have 18 knots over the deck. I strongly suspect that without six heavy blokes on the rail you would be thinking about a reef. In effect you permanently have a first reef in when sailing with the non-overlapper.

The First 40.7 is similarly designed for a large overlapping genoa and I would not be at all surprised if they needed reefing in a Force 3 without a big crew. That does not mean they are not stable with a suitably reduced sail plan.

I found these 2 videos where they seem to be coping quite well in winds well over 30 Knots.



 

Daedelus

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+ F10 is a different animal to a F8.

Too right.


Wind Type___________________Wind pressure in lbs sq ft on:

___________________Round surface__________ Flat Surface


Gale___________________ 2.8___________________ 4.0

Strong Gale_____________ 4.2___________________ 6.7

Whole Gale______________ 5.8___________________ 9.0
 
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